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Purge and trap problem

Discussions about GC and other "gas phase" separation techniques.

26 posts Page 2 of 2
JGK - I have seen similar issues from time to time with spiked samples. I usually attribute it to a poorly mixed vial - I generally leave a small amount of headspace in the vial and invert the vial a few times, then top it off with water to eliminate the headspace. I have better luck doing this, though I would agree it does not really explain what is happening, as the resampled vial often does behave normally.

Do you get all the data you expect from a sequence? I mean - put ten vials on, all have 10 ml missing, but you only have 9 data files? I am wondering about glitchy handshakes between autosampler, concentrator, GC/MS, and the data system. The consistent IS response argues against this, but I suppose a combination of errors like this can result in two vials sampled without a desorb. The IS valve would have to glitch at the same time in this case, which may be possible given the rarity/unpredictabilty of the result.
James_Ball, if you do not mind, can you post a link to that Agilent pub? I think I have read that one as well but I would like to look it over again. Thanks.
http://www.chem.agilent.com/Library/app ... 0603EN.pdf

Pages 11-14 talk about the problem and solutions. It is an interesting read and I was glad I finally found it when working on the problems.
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you all but I've been discussing the issue with the technicians and scientists who are using the system.

First, and I apologise, but we aren't using surrogates (someone in SOP production wasn't using the terminololgy correctly). We take 10 mL of sample and meter in Internal Std prior to the trap. We've checked the sampler and it's taking up and using the full 10 mL.

Periodically, in longer sequences we will see an injection of a std/QC sample where the analyte responses in a STD or QC sample are 1.5 - 2 x expected values. The vial (10 mL sampled from a 40 mL vial has not been over sampled (visual check) and the IS responses are in line with IS responses all other QCs and STDs in the sequence.

At present we have only checked out STD and QC solutions on this injection system as we get it ready for the production environment. However, we have not seen excessive variation in area counts in the IS from the MS detector (variation in area counts is at worst case ~13%. Consequently, we don't suspect an error in IS delivery and based on the lack of variation we don't suspect a trap issue (although we have tested a second trap which did not cure the problem).

We have re-run the same sequence using the same vials (now containing 30 mL in a 40 mL vial) and the vial which prevously exhibited the analyte resonse increase no longer shows the same effect, peak responses are as expected Is responses are comparable to the other vials within the sequence.



When it occurs it appears to be random and not associated with specific STD/QC level, vial position or injection in a sequence. It may/may not occur in a sequence.
Since it seems the area counts for the internal standard are consistent and the volume of sample removed is consistent then I would begin to look beyond the autosampler as being the problem. Changing the trap helps eliminate the concentrator also. With the overall stability you seem to be getting it is difficult to point at any one piece of hardware as causing the problem, which then leads into software problems.

This falls under the first rule of troubleshooting which I was taught; #1 Make sure it is plugged in! Of course it is since you have results, but check the simple stuff just in case. Look closely at the sequence and data to be certain that no multiplier has been put in that would alter the calculation of the data. I have encountered this especially with a new operator that someone puts something other than (1) into the multiplier field( can also be named "sample amount" or "dilution" or any number of other names depending on the manufacturer and software). This would easily explain how the calculated values for the QC and Standard concentrations would change while all other things remain the same.

If the actual area counts for the target compounds are increasing 2x while the internal standard area counts remain the same between two injections of the same standard level then it would be a more complicated problem. In the last 20 years I have had one instrument that had a problem with providing consistent voltage to the Electron Multiplier, which cause similar problems. I first noticed it when a single peak would seem to drop by 10x in area counts compared to what it should have been. It was totally random at first. I began to examine the baseline carefully and noticed there would be steps all along the baseline where it would rise and fall, sort of looked like a random square wave trace. The longer the instrument would run the more frequent it would happen. If I vented it, shut it down, then restarted it would go away for a few days then begin again. It was a 5970 and the Agilent tech replaced pretty much every part in it and we still couldn't fix it so it was the first one I traded up for a 5973. Never did figure that one out :(
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
Thanks again, James.
James's reply about multipplier stability reminds me that if you are using an ion trap MS, co-elution of your target peak with a large contaminant will make it dial down the sensitivity at that retention time, giving you a smaller peak for your target, and if you are running SIM for the target you do not even know that the contaminant is there (presuming that it does not have the SIM ion in its spectrum).

Peter
Peter Apps
James brings up some very good points. I would also be interested to know if the "1.5 to 2x expected values" occur in a standard run after a higher concentration standard. There could be the issue of carry-over from the purge and trap concentrator if something happens and your bake cycle does not have the proper gas flow and/or temperature. Like if you ran a 200ug/L standard and then ran a 10ug/L standard, it may appear that the 10 has similar size peak areas to a 20ug/L standard...but it's just 5% of the previous standard carrying over.

What is the typical order of the sequence of standards that you run? Do you run from low concentration to high concentration, or vice versa?
bigbear Adding too much MeOH can be a problem as it effects the trapping of compounds.
Our SOP warns not to exceed 500 µL in 40 mL to avoid peak broadening
Yama 001 put ten vials on, all have 10 ml missing, but you only have 9 data files.
No missing data files
James_Ball problem with providing consistent voltage to the Electron Multiplier.
but always affecting analytes never the 4 IS' in the injection?
Good judgment comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
James_Ball problem with providing consistent voltage to the Electron Multiplier.
but always affecting analytes never the 4 IS' in the injection? [/quote]

It was hit or miss, one time it would cut out on a IS, but most of the time between them. It sounds different from what you are seeing, just trying to see if there are any other things going on.

One other thought. Have you ever seen water in the syringe below the plunger? I had one once that began leaking and when it was pushing water across to the sparger some of it would leak past the plunger and out the bottom. If this is happening to you it could still pull out the correct amount since the vial is pressurized with helium before removal of sample, but when it is trying to push sample over into the sparger it is pushing against more resistance. This would most likely still transfer the same amount of IS across since the leaking sample would be coming out before it contacts the IS loop. Also it could be you are leaking at one of the Burkett valves just above the syringe allowing some of the sample to go somewhere other than into the sparger.
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
James_Ball problem with providing consistent voltage to the Electron Multiplier.
but always affecting analytes never the 4 IS' in the injection?
It was hit or miss, one time it would cut out on a IS, but most of the time between them. It sounds different from what you are seeing, just trying to see if there are any other things going on.

One other thought. Have you ever seen water in the syringe below the plunger? I had one once that began leaking and when it was pushing water across to the sparger some of it would leak past the plunger and out the bottom. If this is happening to you it could still pull out the correct amount since the vial is pressurized with helium before removal of sample, but when it is trying to push sample over into the sparger it is pushing against more resistance. This would most likely still transfer the same amount of IS across since the leaking sample would be coming out before it contacts the IS loop. Also it could be you are leaking at one of the Burkett valves just above the syringe allowing some of the sample to go somewhere other than into the sparger.[/quote]

If the difference in sample reponse is due to sample loss (meaning that the abberent lone injection is actually correct). It would mean we would be losing something in the order of 3 - 4 mL water per injection for all exept the correct one. that is quite a lot of water and would be noticed by the operator. Even if it wasn't noticed at the time it would leave traces (staining precitiation, "Tide Marks" etc) inside the instrument comartment.
Good judgment comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.

If the difference in sample reponse is due to sample loss (meaning that the abberent lone injection is actually correct). It would mean we would be losing something in the order of 3 - 4 mL water per injection for all exept the correct one. that is quite a lot of water and would be noticed by the operator. Even if it wasn't noticed at the time it would leave traces (staining precitiation, "Tide Marks" etc) inside the instrument comartment.
The one place it could leak and not be noticed would be at the burkett valve on top of the syringe. I believe one of those will divert to waste, and if that valve leaks the excess water will be sent down the waste line. The only ways to catch this is to mark your sparger at the proper volume and observe it with each purge or to watch the waste line during each filling to see if there is water movement through it to waste when it should be filling the sparger.

But thinking about it again it is counter intuitive since the one sample out of several you have is high instead of low, which would mean that the bulk of the runs are having an error that is consistent while randomly you get one run that works correctly.

This is definitely still a head scratcher for sure.
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
This is definitely still a head scratcher for sure.
Yes we have a number of very scratched heads in the lab :lol:
Good judgment comes from bad experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
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