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Dionex Chromeleon or Waters Empower or other?

Discussions about chromatography data systems, LIMS, controllers, computer issues and related topics.

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Hi to all forum members,

This is my first post on this excellent forum.

Our company is currently in the process of evaluating different CDS systems with a view to replace our current Chemstation Plus (Chemstation & Chemstore) software.

To date we have extensively reviewed and evaluated both Chromeleon and Empower. Instrument control for our Agilent 1100 Series HPLC's does seem better on the Chromeleon compared to Empower. However, taking into account all other aspects of the different packages, it's proving a difficult decision to make.

I'd appreciate any feedback from other members who are maybe using either of these CDS systems with Agilent 1100's in an FDA regulated environment.

What do you like best and least about each system?

Also, any other CDS systems out there we should review (e.g. Agilent OpenLab)?

Thanks in advance
Rob.

If you're talking about isolated PC/Instrument setups (1 PC w/ 1-3 instruments hooked up to it - possibly repeated a few times), it's up to whatever the end users are more comfprtable with. If you're talking about having everything networked, you'll have to poll the users and bring your IT people in too, as you will be adding lots of odd stuff to their LAN.

In addition to considering Empower & Chromeleon, you should consider TotalChrom. Each system has some benefits and some drawbacks. You will have to figure out which system is right for your lab(s). Also - Agilent is supposed to be running a newer more enterprise network oriented CDS these days (I would assume that you've considered that too?).

Another consideration is what your instrument demographics are. If you have a lot of different brands of instruments, you will have only the software's integrating & reporting capabilities to compare. If you're loaded with Agilent & Waters equipment, instrument control becomes more important. If you have 80 Agilents and 2 Waters (for example), Empower would probably be cost prohibitive in the long run if you need instrument control. Also - as with equipment, hows the service, training & technical support for the CDS?

While it's nice to get a better CDS, I don't envy you as people will be calling you names behind your back for a while no matter the choice made or its success down the road.
Thanks,
DR
Image

I don't envy you this job, it's always difficult to make these kind of decisions. There was an article in LC-GC recently about Golf Card scoring systems that seemed quite simple.

My company did a similar exercise about three years ago, looking at many different vendors for a multi site, multi system networked system (the shortlist included Dionex Chromeleon, Thermo Atlas, Waters Empower, Agilent Chemstation and SciSW EZChrom amongst others) covering instruments like Agilent, Waters Alliance, Thermo and Shimadzu.

The most useful information was to get the vendors to install evaluation copies that we could dump some typical users into, after two days of them using the system they got a really good handle on how easy the systems are to use.

You also want to look at the support available (get the vendor to walk you through how a problem would be addressed), updates to the system (how many updates in the last three years, is there a roadmap for the next three). Does the vendor do any kind fo user group of meeting, User lead groups are more independent and more usefull, but anything shows the vendor is invested with the customer. Also get the vendor to give you some customer details and then contact them, that way you get a more rounded view.

For us, Chromeleon won quite emphatically, mainly on it's ease of use, Part 11 compliance features and company philosophy. We've been using it ever since through four versions and are very happy.

Be very careful when you've decided, some less scrupulous vendors have a tendency to halve their quotes after the financial stage when they're told they've been turned down, this doesn't help your decision at all.

Paul

--
Paul

there are so many points to look at that it is hard to get them all.
i will admit from the start that even that empower is a great software, i find Chromeleon to be the most user friendly for the level of complexity both CDS pack (i will remind that more then once). OpenLab (repainted EZChrom) is good and simple if you are only at the stand alone level no Client server involved and no complex reporting to do .
but that my personnal opinion

here is the most important thing you need to remember at all time:
it will be a long time before you will want to change your software, better hold the decision another month then to get stcuk with a non adequate product in the end for several years (ask around about Cerity). remember.



here is a check list that you should look at, mostly remember what you want your CDS to do, and how easy it is to get it to do it. many times you can do something but doing it "takes the life out of you to do it" :)

1. Support- if your vendor knows what he is talking about he will be able to advise you on what to implement and what to make sure you need to look at if you throw at him a checklist

2.multi vendor- harder to switch the software but simpler to switch hardware, you never know what will happen in the future

3.software upgrade- it will have to happen, so look at the vendor SOP's and documentation. see if you can have it Citrix based in C/S(easier to upgrade the clients), go for oracle if you can, SQL is slower.

4. Administrators, power users, user accounts- if it doesn't answer your needs, someone in your company will waste a lot of time on this especially if you have a lot of changes in your personnal during the year.

5.hardware ease of use via the software- how easily can you tell or not tell your HPLC what to do and when to do it. here the access to the commands of the instruments in chromeleon let's you freely design your panel view and you can easily create custom commands that will suit your every need in Chromeleon (can't do that in any other CDS). instruments program are more flexible, have you been shown the triggers? you don't have that with any other CDS.

6. overall data access: Ezchrom sucks, you always have to go through an instrument (a lot like Chemstation and cerity) in C/S environment it leads to many mistakes espeacially if you have mixed instrument in your lab. the best i think of saving the information is according to instrument for that CDS, as if you were in an assemble of stand alone systems.
Empower let's you set a simple general structure, but the data is simply dumped in it and you haveto know what you are looking for or when you did it or to filter it out.
Chromeleon let's you set up the big picture like you do it in windows (folder based), if you don't think through a bit in the beginning it will fast become confusing. but it has a very strong google like querry search that will be an added bonus for other needs.

7.LIMS conection- if you don't need it now you will do in the future, see the CDS capacity on the matter for future needs

8.data analyses- how hard is it to integrate complex chromatogram? try a hard one, with a lot of tailing, fronting peaks, many small peaks especially close eluting to a main peak, check peak naming of very very close eluting peaks. see if the software switches them or not. "time" how much it takes you to integrate an entire set of chromatograms after you have done the initial integration. in all CDS it is easy to integrate one at a time most of the time, the trick is to do it fast with 50+ complex chromatograms. See how easy it is to undo changes.

9.amount calculations- check how easy it is for the most simple user to understand how it works especially for checking compounds according to another one, unknown imp., or internal calculations. check how much you need to change from day to day. see how easy it is to see the results on screen. here chromeleon is super convinient, and has dynamic capacities with the integration parameters, so you can see how changes take effect in seconds for all your work.

10.reporting- the most important parameters these days to check because it is where the users "waste" most of the time. time how long it takes you to get your final results from the moment you start inegration to the moment you have approved it. see how easy it is to change reports in user account environment, but without being able to falsify one, one important character is that you have to save it otherwise it will not print it or say clearly that the report was printed without saving (very CFR 21 important)
most CDS will be CFR 21 compliant but will also be totally locked to changes and not flexible ebough in order to comply.
reporting is your most importantissue to check. see how flexible it is trully. how well can you suit it to your needs, how hard do you have to work to suit it to your needs, can you create easy to follow trend plots, charts, summurised tables.
here I trully feel that Chromeolen is the best, on all counts, again it also has a dynamic range with the data integration that shorten the time needed to get the final results.
check anything that you think is relevant to your needs. again this section is in my view the most important one. here you will save most of the time for your users. but check that it is easy to get there as well.

11. GLP printouts check if the printed out document you produce are trully GLP. for example the sequence print out of empower can be very non GLP, it lakes many parameters that have to comply with the basic questions of whom, when, how where, why, on which instruments. EZChrom is on the other hand is too detailed for the printouts. they are GLP but ugly to look at and too long to be easy to understand.

12.formulas, user defined values- no software packs all the information that you will need in the present or the future. check how easy it is to create and implement custom made fields. see how easy it is to combine parameters from the software to your needs or change the units of parameters
(quick example area of peak can be defined as mAU/min; uAu/sec; counts; mVolts)

probably left some points but but this are most of the big ones
hope this helps

I'm glad to see someone else saw the same article on evaluations as I did. I agree with Paul its an excellent way to carry out any type of evaluation Ive added a link to the freebie electronic magazine the article in question is actually on page 10

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/advanst ... olumn0106/

I pretty much agree with unmgvar's list, and would rank the important aspects against current and predicted near term needs. Predicting the future is difficult, so only worry about it as the capex value increases.

I was somewhat less impressed with the golf score card system, anything that suggests cost and uptime are less important than influence on vendor lives in a much more sheltered environment than I.

Obviously the toy has to perform the required tasks, but the quality of the toy is usually defined at the annual capex or project budgetting rounds in many businesse. Define your needs clearly, and the matching toy will usually appear, however the real issues are often support ( including service ) and uptime for single item large capex purchases.

Track record usually helps with those aspects, and influence on vendor is mainly determined by their perception of your future business with them. Keep buying their toys, and you will have lots of influence, as you would if you purchased from a small company, as opposed to puchasing from a global supplier, But I'd usually not want to buy an orphan from a small business.

Bruce Hamilton
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