Chromatography Forum

Hey, thanks for help in advance.
Here's the situation.
Most of my instrumentation is AGILENT and I have ChemLms. I want a new CDS but some folks on my team are struggling with vendor selection. Some vendors claim to have 'agreements' for instrument control with Agilent but the only official agreement I see is one between Waters and Agilent.
My opinion is that:
Agilent has the EZChrom system and of course I wouldn't have to worry about 'agreements' for controls now or in the future ( I intend to continue to purchase Agilent instruments ).
The decision seems simple, in that I would have one vendor from instrument through to CDS and Lims.
Would appreciate any thoughts/experience on the above topic.

Thanks again..............Folken

Hi Folken

You should choose your new CDS on merit.
Functionality, simplicity of use, cost, reliability and on going customer support should be your criteria for chosing a new CDS.

You should seek to buy the best instruments for you analysis, best CDS for you lab staff and best LIMS for your workflow. It is unllikely that these will all be from the same vendor....

EZChrom appears to be the way Agilent are going with their OpenLab group of applications and would be good if you had other vendors HPLCs but you could look to Cerity for Pharma as the alternative, if you want an Agilent product.

However, as Bob says, evaluate on all merits, not just that it is the same vendor. As you may see from other threads, there are people who have had mixed experiences with cross-control and whilst we can all give you our subjective opinions of different CDSs, the final decision comes down to whether it meets your requirements in a way that your end-users can work with.

Thanks for the feedback.
I guess cross control now and in the future is the big question mark.

Now that Agilent has EZChrom and Open Lab will they be so willing to let the other instrument vendors share their instrument control functionality?

If I purchase a non Agilent CDS, what will instrument control look like when Agilent comes out with a new product? I like the fact that if problems arise I have only the one vendor to deal with.

-=Folken=-

The problems you highlight - new models and problems - are two of the main reasons we didn't go with cross-control. THe other related to new models was new firmware.

For new models/firmware you could look at it the other way round - before you get the new Agilent hardware/firmware check that your CDS will control it (the CDS vendor should be able to tell you).

For problems with cross control, i.e. who is responsible if something doesn't work - that is a grey/gray area. Our company took the pesimistic view - "Whoever you call will always say it is the other vendor's fault". That's what the formal exchange of codes between Agilent and Waters was supposed to correct - either vendor could identify where the problem lay and (possibly) fix it. Other non-specific CDS vendors don't have those agreements, but generally you would like to think that they had done extensive testing at whatever control level to ensure their product worked properly with the instrument hardware/firmware.

As for whether Agilent will continue to make their control codes available in future is anyones guess. At the end of the day they have to decide if they will make more money selling HPLCs that only their CDS can control (and hence sell more copies of their CDS), or sell ones that any CDS can control.

Folken,
when you need to put all your systems on a C/S installation, you should always go for at least 2 pilots of your system.

if you are using a LIMS system, your CDS comunicates with it.
cross control as Tim said is always a problem that you will need to take into account, on the other hand don't forget that you never know what will be your hardware or software needs in the future, due to new needs. you should always find the most flexible solution for the most impredictible needs in the future.
for example you never knoe if you will need to change your LIMS system in the future

as Tim said cross control is a grey area but it gives you a greater lab solution.

on that matter, the best softwares on the market to date are Chromeleon, empower, and last comes EZChrom elite.
the morte flexibles in term of connection to LIMS are EZChrom and Chromeleon.
i would not go for OPEN lab since in the market they are far better LIMS softwares that permit you a smarter, faster and easier connectivity.

for reporting capabilities and the capacity to faster re-implement your excel sheets if you have them i would have to go for Chromeleon.

but also ask around. the biggest Pharmas are already in paperless environments. ask the vendors to take you site seeing and testing.

again always test on site with a pilot installation, and see how easy will be the learning curve for your users.
always but always involve your information department in the matter, you will from now on depend heavily on their support.

good luck

Now that Agilent has EZChrom and Open Lab will they be so willing to let the other instrument vendors share their instrument control functionality?
= Folken=-

Hi Folken,

The whole question of cross control is one of flexability. Most businesses these days do not what to limit their future options, or have all their eggs in one basket. Instrument vendors are only too aware of this and nearly all have an open access policy for their control protocols. This means that reverse engineering is rarely required.

In reality if you are worried about support when things go wrong, chose a vendor with a good customer support reputation.

Bob

This means that reverse engineering is rarely required.

This is clearly false information.

Fact is that most CDS vendors ARE reverse engineering the 1100 control (e.g. Dionex). It is always a matter of mutual business interest (like the agreement between Waters and Agilent) or a huge market pressure that makes instrument vendors disclose their information. Other than this most larger instrument vendors are not realy motivated to disclose their protocols in most cases.

Then there is the matter of how quickly a 'reverse engineering' CDS vendor will provide support for new 1100 modules that may come out.

Then there is the matter of how quickly a 'reverse engineering' CDS vendor will provide support for new products like the new 1200 series from Agilent.

Then there is the matter of how a 'reverse engineering' CDS vendor is going to implement advanced features like instrument diagnostics.

Even before Agilent took over SSI (orignal EZChrom developer) the 1100 drivers for EZChrom were developed on official Agilent documentation.

This is what I KNOW on the subject.

JW
Applied Instruments

Then there is the matter of how a 'reverse engineering' CDS vendor is going to implement advanced features like instrument diagnostics.

Interesting you should bring that up, since Agilent themselves have very little in the way of diagnostics in Cerity. Only with the latest version (A.02.03) have they added in diagnostics in the form of Leak Test, Pressure Test and Holmium test.

I heard from one of their engineers that they were going to keep ChemStation as the diagnostic tool, but I feel/hope that pressure from industry will change that.

Then there is the matter of how quickly a 'reverse engineering' CDS vendor will provide support for new products like the new 1200 series from Agilent

I just pulled the following from the FAQ page on Agilent's website:

We are using 3rd party software (non-Agilent) to control our Agilent 1100 Series LC. Will I be able to add a new Agilent 1200 Series module to the system and continue to control the system with the 3rd party software?

Yes. If the current revision of the 3rd party software is capable of controlling your Agilent 1100 Series system, adding a new Agilent 1200 Series module and using it in Agilent 1100 Series emulation mode should allow continued support form the 3rd party software. This will enable you to upgrade your system immediately with new Agilent 1200 Series LC modules without having to wait for the 3rd party software provider to upgrade their software with Agilent 1200 Series LC control codes.

So, OK, you may not get newer functionality from the 1200 series, but should still be able to use it.[/quote]

Interesting you should bring that up, since Agilent themselves have very little in the way of diagnostics in Cerity. Only with the latest version (A.02.03) have they added in diagnostics in the form of Leak Test, Pressure Test and Holmium test.

Cerity will be supported in the future but Agilent are moving their efforts to the OpenLAB platform. It will be this platform where you will be seeing more diagnostics capabilities through a variety of ways.

Agilent 1100 Series emulation mode should allow continued support form the 3rd party software.

Correct

you may not get newer functionality from the 1200 series

Correct

There are 10 types of people in the world:
Those who understand binary and those who don't.

Funniest tagline I have seen for a long time!

JW