Chromeleon v. Empower

[rossp]

Has anybody used both Chromeleon and Empower in a GMP setting? We're trying to decide which to go with to control Agilent HPLCs. What is the software validation like for each one? How about customer support?

[unmgvar]

rossp,
in effect software validation is your responsibility. each vendor has a set of pre-defined documents to perform IQ, OQ but PQ/PV is something you need to define and them to help you perform
customer support depends on where you are in the world and differs from country to country, and locations

check features and driver control release history of agilent systems, who wil best support you a third party instrument?
will the software control all of them? most of them? how?
how many instruments do you have?
do you want to do the setting in client server or stay in stand alone?
how many users do you have?
how do you intend to do the calculations? excel? within software?
do you want to reach paperless capability?
do you have a LIMS? if yes to you want to interface to it?

you talk of GMP, i think you should do a simple demo
control an instrument for a while and see if the software gives you a solution that fits you

why have you not considered also openLab? it is right now the agilent solution that can comply to GMP demands


there are some more questions to deal with for sure, but this is a good start for your answer.
in my view after you go over them you will know better what is best for you, like we did in the past for our own

for us in the end the choice was Chromeleon, because we found it to best suit us for our needs and way of working.

[rossp]

thanks for the advice.

basically I'm at a start up company, we don't have a GMP lab yet or anybody to run it but need to go ahead and make some decisions now for the future. We would rather have Chromeleon (or possibly Empower) for R&D with Agilent and possibly Dionex HPLCs, but would like to eventually have the same software in the GMP lab as in R&D. So that's why we haven't considered OpenLab, Chemstation isn't as easy as other controllers in R&D.

Pretty much we don't have a lot of GMP experience but have used Empower a little in a GMP setting at a different company, so we know it can be done but would rather have Chromeleon across the board.

[varossf]

So that's why we haven't considered OpenLab, Chemstation isn't as easy as other controllers in R&D.

RossP, please consider OpenLAB CS EZChrom, which gives you compliance directly without the necessity of OpenLAB ECM, which is required for ChemStation. It also works from stand-alone workstation to true client/server.
The nice thing is with EZChrom is that it works project oriented and you can mix non-GxP and GxP projects in the same installation. So you can mix R&D and QC in the same instance. Furthermore it has some nice reporting tools .

As far as instrument control goes, like ChemStation it uses the modern .Net drivers from Agilent.

If you need more info, drop me an email.

[remesquaddie]

thanks for the advice.

basically I'm at a start up company, we don't have a GMP lab yet or anybody to run it but need to go ahead and make some decisions now for the future. We would rather have Chromeleon (or possibly Empower) for R&D with Agilent and possibly Dionex HPLCs, but would like to eventually have the same software in the GMP lab as in R&D. So that's why we haven't considered OpenLab, Chemstation isn't as easy as other controllers in R&D.

Pretty much we don't have a lot of GMP experience but have used Empower a little in a GMP setting at a different company, so we know it can be done but would rather have Chromeleon across the board.

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Call us

[unmgvar]

Rossp
if you are looking in the future to be client server and with several type of HPLC instruments from different vendors then you will need to consider the all too crazy situation of your system where you will try to run methods based on one machine with another one
in all CDS the best way is to create a instrument method with the name of the instrument or number you give it,
in ezchrom you will need to make sure to keep part of that name to know where you ran the stuff, and because of the old file management system, you will need to make sure to also save correctly the file to see where they where run
in empower you will need to know to filter well, because everything is dumped in the same location in projects
only in chromeleon the sequence+ project structure will allow you to see what was run where with what without mistake. and you will not be able top run a set of samples done in one instrument by another one without knowingly making the switch and even then the instrument method will need to be compatible and error proofed, unlike for other softwares before the sample run.
I know because in a ezchrom and empower client server mixups like that are a real problem. especially the possibility to switch an instrument method between HPLCs. that is when you get the weirdest bugs.

[Dividination]

We use Empower. And if you need to run Agilent equipment in a larger scale GMP environment that supports R&D and QC it’s the way to go. Now Chromeleon has some nice features, don’t get me wrong, but then so does Empower. Of course ChemStation isn’t that bad either. Overall though I say Empower gets the nod. So unless you need to run a lot of Dionex ICs – Empower’s the way to go. Chromeleon isn’t too far in 2nd place though.

Note one thing I have learned with dealing with both companies over the years – Waters has excellent support, Dionex is a pathetic joke. I’m not saying that Waters is perfect either. But Dionex will lie cheat and steal to sell you something, then disappear like the wind when you need help (and before people start ranting on me, trust me I have many examples so don’t start). Now with them being bought by Thermo/Fisher I expect that to change. But had a meeting with some of the Dionex sales folks a couple of weeks ago - I can tell you that so far at least it hasn’t changed yet.

[Klaus I.]

Note one thing I have learned with dealing with both companies over the years – Waters has excellent support, Dionex is a pathetic joke. I’m not saying that Waters is perfect either. But Dionex will lie cheat and steal to sell you something, then disappear like the wind when you need help (and before people start ranting on me, trust me I have many examples so don’t start). Now with them being bought by Thermo/Fisher I expect that to change. But had a meeting with some of the Dionex sales folks a couple of weeks ago - I can tell you that so far at least it hasn’t changed yet.

I certainly believe you, but the differences could possibly lie in the individual personality of the sale folks. It may also depends on the division of the company e.g software or hplc. In my area also Dionex has a very good support.