Chemstation ... ARGGG!!!

[Karen01]

In reverse chronological order I have been using Empower 2, Empower, Millennium (all those for both GC and HPLC), Water's 860 Vax based Expert Ease fro HPLC.

I understand the structure, and being used to thinking in terms of relational databases find, it logical, easy to use, extremely powerful AND extremely flexible.

You rarely have to deal with datafiles with user unfriendly names and paths... I can review and process data anyway way I want very simply... and everything is linked together conveniently but transparently... I only have to worry about high level stuff.


I just got a new job where they don't like Water's and they just bought a new Agilent HPLC with Chemstation.

First doesn't Agilent know that the Multiple Document Interface (MDI) UI on Windows fell out of favor long ago???? That alone is causing me grief!

Outside of actually doing an injection (I REALLY don't need cartoons for that...) I'm find this software amazing convoluted, unintuitive and limited in it's method part organization and data review capabilities! Separate on-line and off line apps???!!!

Maybe it's just my unfamiliarity with Chemstation .. but in general i'm pretty good with software (both using and writing) and i'm ready to start pulling out my hair.

So can I ask questions about it here?

First question.

Is it possible top overlay two chromatograms in review mode from different acquisition sequences? If so how?

In Empower i would just select any number of channels or results regardless of when they were acquired or processed and review them. If I want I can then easily look at some or all of the injection as overlays or stacked plots.

I've figured out (more or less) how to do that for injections in a single acquired sequence in ChemStation... But can I do it across sequences?

Thanks,
- Karen

[Consumer Products Guy]

I'm a computer idiot, and I do pretty well on ChemStation, have used it over 15 years (A.09 is our highest, though). I find it pretty intuitive. I haven't used any other chromatography software.

So can I ask questions about it here?

Yes.

First question. Is it possible top overlay two chromatograms in review mode from different acquisition sequences? If so how?

Yes. Under view, make sure you are in "Full Menu. Then in Data Analysis, load the first data signal from its data subdirectory (in Sequence Parameters or Sample data name each day's data in a separate 1\Data\ subdirectory, such as 112310 for today's date). Then select overlay (the next choice down from load signal), find the data directory where that data lies, and load that to overlay. Under Graphics, first selection, you can choose overlay or separated, and whether to zoom independently.

You could also copy chromatogram xxx.D directories to a different data directory if that is easier.

The default ChemStation naming sequence is 001-0101.D where the first three characters are the vial number, the first two after the dash are the LINE in the Sequence Table, and the last two are which injection on that line.

[Karen01]

I'm a computer idiot, and I do pretty well on ChemStation, have used it over 15 years (A.09 is our highest, though).

In my old lab, after I showed those coming in who knew Chemstation already what Empower could do and how it could make their work easier, not a single one chose to use the Agilent HPLC because of the ChemStation software so it stood idle most of the time!

Yes. Under view, make sure you are in "Full Menu. Then in Data Analysis, load the first data signal from its data subdirectory (in Sequence Parameters or Sample data name each day's data in a separate 1\Data\ subdirectory, such as 112310 for today's date). Then select overlay (the next choice down from load signal), find the data directory where that data lies, and load that to overlay. Under Graphics, first selection, you can choose overlay or separated, and whether to zoom independently.

Thanks I appreciate it! i'll try that tomorrow

I would much rather see sample names...

Having to do it using such file names makes it hard to quickly find the data you want to overlay.

That's they type of thing that drives me crazy!!!! Why in this day and age should a chromatographer have to deal with cryptic files names instead of easily readable and meaningful sample names and and other info?

In Empower your an see sample name, Acquisition Sample Set Name, Acquisition Date/time and other human readable information which makes things easy.

I guess complaining won't do me any good...

- Karen

[Consumer Products Guy]

There's always been an option in ChemStation to use your own nomenclature for data file (data directory) names - but that was only up to 8 characters. The recent revisions of software allow for a lot more characters.

"I only have two problems with computers:
(1) when I need to use the keyboard
(2) when I need to use the mouse "

[HPLCCONSULT]

Karen01. Wow, you do seem frustrated. It sounds like no one ever put aside an hour or so to give you a basic overview of ChemStation for HPLC software (it would help to know which revision you have and with what instrument model as the graphical interface has undergone some changes over the past twenty years).

Perhaps consider taking a class in learning how to use the software. It is very logically constructed (but not perfect, what is ?). The trick is to quickly get oriented where the important things are. *Among other things, I train people in how to use a wide variety of chromatography software packages and ChemStation is by far the easiest package to get someone up and running on. In one day I can usually teach them practical information that would take them at least one to two years to learn on their own. Knowledge is a powerful thing and it helps you do your job better too.

A few free tips: Basically you spend most of your time in either the 'Instrument' View Menu (which has everything you need to set-up and run Methods or Sequences) or the 'Data Analysis' View (which has everything needed for Calibrations, Integration, Reports and overlays...) Yes, data file (or signal) overlays are very simple and quick as 'consumer product guy' mentioned. Just load the file(s) or specific signal(s) one at a time. *Also, turn on the 'File Info' button (I think that is the name used, but I am not looking at it right now). This displays the information about each data file BEFORE you LOAD it so you can see the sample name, date, signals and other sample info entered by the operator. Very handy (always fill in the sample comment information box when running a Method and the Method Information Box too). As far as sample names go, well that is up to the operator and also dependent on the version of ChemStation ('B.01.01' rev introduced long file names). I personally use names that directly relate to the sample name and then store them in folders which relate to the compound, study type or group that the sample goes in (what ever makes the most logical sense so I can find them quickly later on). *Sequence allows you to place all of the data in any folder you want (so take advantage of that feature) and also to provide a Sequence file name Prefix as well.

Also, the graphical interface and Menu tool bar are about 80% redundant so use whichever one you are comfortable with.

Good luck and let us know how it all works out.

[Karen01]

Karen01. Wow, you do seem frustrated. It sounds like no one ever put aside an hour or so to give you a basic overview of ChemStation for HPLC software (it would help to know which revision you have and with what instrument model as the graphical interface has undergone some changes over the past twenty years).

The most recent one. The HPLC was installed about 6 weeks ago, 1 week before before i started... AND no one there knows how to run it. They just don't like Water's for some reason.

Perhaps consider taking a class in learning how to use the software.

None scheduled any time soon.

It is very logically constructed (but not perfect, what is ?).

Over the years writing in-house software I have learned that when it comes to user interfaces:

1) Logical alone does not a good user user interface make
2) People think differently
3) power users have very different ideas about good user interfaces than basic users... and it's still based on how they think individually!

The way i think, I took to the Water's database way like a duck to water from day 1.

The trick is to quickly get oriented where the important things are. *Among other things, I train people in how to use a wide variety of chromatography software packages and ChemStation is by far the easiest package to get someone up and running on.

If you mean getting people injecting samples I agree. If you mean easily doing a lot of non trivial non routine data stuff ... Well so far I am very skeptical.

In one day I can usually teach them practical information that would take them at least one to two years to learn on their own.

<smile> If I had a solid uninterrupted QUIET (the lab is noisy) couple of days, I could pick most of it up on my own I think... but so far I have not had that.

Knowledge is a powerful thing and it helps you do your job better too.

I agree. Using Empower i was able to automate much of the workflow of my last lab (which has some unusual requirements) and using the power provides Database approach I was able to do sophisticated ad-hoc stuff quickly.

A few free tips: Basically you spend most of your time in either the 'Instrument' View Menu (which has everything you need to set-up and run Methods or Sequences) or the 'Data Analysis' View (which has everything needed for Calibrations, Integration, Reports and overlays...) Yes, data file (or signal) overlays are very simple and quick as 'consumer product guy' mentioned.

<smile> Picking the injections and channels (signals) you want with file names like that is not simple in practice for me. My brain does not digest strings of numbers like that.

Glad to hear I can get it to show me more info ... But I really wish I could see injections (with sample names) from multiple sequences in the navigation pane at once ... If only the sequences in the navigation pane had disclosure widgets!!!

BTW I hate toolbars and even in Empower i always used the menus instead of the toolbars...

Just load the file(s) or specific signal(s) one at a time.

I was trying to do that, but as group, as i would do it in Empower where i could see all injections (and sample names) across 'sequences'...

The navigation pane only showed sequences and would not show the the individual injections ( would noy open in tree form) in a sequence to control click on...

I could right click on a sequence and then choose to overlay injections from within that sequence, but for the life of me I could not figure out how to pick injections across sequences. The MDI interface just hid too much to realize what was going on when you "loaded".

*Also, turn on the 'File Info' button (I think that is the name used, but I am not looking at it right now). This displays the information about each data file BEFORE you LOAD it so you can see the sample name, date, signals and other sample info entered by the operator. Very handy (always fill in the sample comment information box when running a Method and the Method Information Box too).

I've not been doing that... Empower requires you to create a specific name for each run to start the run... I did not connect comments and method information with run ID's.

As far as sample names go, well that is up to the operator and also dependent on the version of ChemStation ('B.01.01' rev introduced long file names).

Sample names are not a problem ... it's having to deal with data file name as principle ID for a chromatogram. I never want to have to see/deal with raw file names... Why should I have to care about such things? That's where Empower really shines.

I personally use names that directly relate to the sample name and then store them in folders which relate to the compound, study type or group that the sample goes in (what ever makes the most logical sense so I can find them quickly later on).

That is what I used projects for on Empower...Once a project was set up I never had to deal with paths.

Good luck and let us know how it all works out.

I'll learn it.

It's hard to find quiet time at work to play with it. They also have an OLD water's system that uses Empower, so i have to go back and forth between Empower and Chemstation... Which makes it more difficult.

Thanks for your help... Hopefully tomorrow I'll have better luck with it!!!

- Karen

[macgyver]

If it's a new HPLC and no one at your lab knows how to use it, Agilent should be providing training on its use (for free!). Get your local Agilent rep to give you some training. If they complain and want more $ for the training, they're just shooting themselves in the foot for the next purchase that comes up in your lab.

[AICMM]

That which does not kill you makes you stronger.

Best regards,

AICMM

[varossf]

Karen, have your ChemStation be replaced with OpenLAB CDS EZChrom Edition, which probably will suit your need better. And Familarization should have been given as part of the package.
BTW, where are you based?

[Karen01]

Karen, have your ChemStation be replaced with OpenLAB CDS EZChrom Edition, which probably will suit your need better.

I doubt that i could get my employer to spend more money for a just bought HPLC system

I quickly took a look at the OpenLab brochure. Not sure what the differences between the editions. It looks like the EZChrom addition does not use a database as it said it still used individual data files. Is that right?

The features of Empower i most value are the ones provided by the underlying Oracle database.

And Familarization should have been given as part of the package.

Well it sort of was, but it sort of happened the week before I started. The install did not go smoothly. The new detector was faulty and had to be replaced... and only a little familiarization was done then (given to the person who use to do the HPLC work) which was cut short.

The following week (my first week there), we had a minor issue trying to prime the pump after it went dry so a service engineer came in and because i said we did not get enough familiarization, he spent about 15 minutes on familiarization with me...

Just enough to be able to create an instrument method and do an injection and a little bit of method/data navigation and how to setup paths.

When i asked about calibration i was told that was an 'advanced' topic and not covered by familiarization. Also nothing was shown on reporting.

With 30 years of chromatography experience and lots of CDS and programing experience, and having always been told chemstation was a lot easier than Empower, I figured I would be able to pick it up easily myself... So far not the case...

I'm going to have to use ChemStation for our GC as well (we are getting a new sampler if I can ever get the install scheduled).. not looking forward to it!

In my last job for 14 years I used Millennium/Empower with Agilent/HP GCs as well...

BTW, where are you based?

Boston MA area in the USA .

- Karen

[Consumer Products Guy]

The GC ChemStation is EXACTLY the same for Data Analysis, and the only differences on the first window are in the Instrument column, due to your hardware differences. So it's 99% the same.

So if you know one, you know both.

I find calibration set up straightforward. We use it to do automated sequence summaries with the ESTD% calculated, and also automated system suitabilities.

[lmh]

In defence of Agilent, they traditionally don't provide training as an automatic component of buying a new instrument, as a large proportion of their customer-base already has several instruments, is trained up, and doesn't want re-training.

Agilent do, with partners, offer plenty of high-quality training if you want it, and it's a pity it wasn't bought as part of the original package.

If you haven't had training on how to use calibration in Chemstation, then you absolutely need it. The financial loss of having a new instrument and no idea how to use it is hard to overestimate. It's huge. If your company can't get a trainer in, they may as well not have bought their new instrument. I can't emphasise this too strongly. You can spend days piddling around trying to do a 5 minute job because no one has told you anything about the underlying philosophy of Chemstation. Even after days, you still run a significant risk of getting poor-quality results. It's just the wrong way to go.

In the UK, Crawford Scientific are the preferred partners for training, I believe. I don't know about elsewhere.

I do sympathise. Chemstation is totally, totally different to Empower in how it looks at the world. I use it a lot, and Empower only slightly, which gives me an unfair bias towards Chemstation (I know it's unfair and can see Empower is more powerful). But the bottom line is it's best to know how to get the best out of all the tools you have, whether you like them or not...

[Consumer Products Guy]

Because the data stations are all so different, our company has "standardized" on one chromaotography platform for R&D and QC.

In our case it happens to be Agilent; we've had great technical reliability, and we don't have to re-train everybody all the time. From A.03 to present, pretty much the same to the analysts.

[Karen01]

I use it a lot, and Empower only slightly, which gives me an unfair bias towards Chemstation (I know it's unfair and can see Empower is more powerful).

In the past I've been able to use that power very effectively to make my work and the work of those in my department a heck of lot easier.

There is a lot more to developing chromatography methods and supporting process development than just running the chromatography and calculating results.

Being built on a database helps with all the other ancillary time consuming stuff a lot more than people not familiar with it realize.

Now I'm in a new startup doing everything myself again, and it feels like my most powerful efficiency tool is gone...

It's always been my combination of chromatography skills and software/database savvy that helped me really shine. The data/method management capabilities, including filtering/searching/sorting really help me in both areas to get things done quickly.

But the bottom line is it's best to know how to get the best out of all the tools you have, whether you like them or not...

I'll learn it... and maybe learn how to work around the limitations...

- Karen

[giacomo56]

Sorry...been seeing alot of posts from Karen01....and I am stepping into a land mine here but here it goes....

Funny thing is what you deam "limitations" some find familiarity.....a chemist taught on Chemstation can run any version from 20 years ago to today......IT IS the most popular Software in the world....why would Agilent want to replace it and leave thousands in the lurch.

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And yes I am an armchair Psychologist....