Chromatography Forum

Hey all..!
I'v aproblem in my Gc analyzer maxum II siemens that I got a fault message Flame FID Out
1) however their is a condensate in FID vent
2) I try To increase H2 Flow more than designed flow and ignite again but i also get the same fault
3) I disable H2 Flow and i'v also condensate :S for more than 10 min
what can i do
4) Alarm sittings is the like design
Please Help me in my problem Soon
Thanks Alot
Eng Sarhan
Analyzer instrument engineer, EGYPT

Have you check the compressed air line? the condensate may come from that and quench the flame.

the compressed air pressure is ok do u think that compressed air contain moisture or something like that however instrument air is the same in the company and i'v 3 maxum II and no problem except only this one

and i checked air flow and h2 flow 400,23 CC/Min like siemns drawing
and this is my mail
Sarhan_elab@hotmail.com for more details

what happen to this issue?

any updates?

i experienced this problem in maxum GC

-i change the igniter because the coil was damaged
-its a matter of ratio of fuel and air

-maxum is auto ignite. once it detect flame out it will auto ignite but be sure the ratio of fuel and air is correct and check the vent of the detector

If you have not already done so, you need to measure your flame gas flows with an independent flow meter - do not trust the readout from the GC.

What carrier gas are you using. If it is hydrogen turn it off, or change temporarily to helium or nitrogen.

For troubleshooting turn off the automatic re-ignite option.

Assuming that the flows are correct, light the flame. Does the flame out alert appear immediately, or does it appear after some time ?

If the flame will not light, decrease the air flow to about 100 ml/min. Do not increase the hydrogen flow because this can make the flame lift off the jet, and the signal drops low enough to start the flame out alert. Try the igniter again. if the flame lights, increase the air flow slowly to the recommended flow. What happens ?.

Shut off the air and the hydrogen (and make up gas if you have it) to make completely sure that the flame cannot burn. Then turn on the air alone and check for condensation - if you see condensation you have wet airs, as already mentioned.

If the flame is really burning, checked by condensation, and double checked by getting a signal if you inject some lighter gas at the inlet, but you still get a flame out alert, then try lowering the flame out threshold.

If that does not work you probably have an electronics problem.

If you have any extra equipment (e.g. headspace samplers, purge and trap) connect to the GC check that they are not transmitting stray voltage to the GC chassis - this sets off the flame out alarm on Varians from the 3800
onwards, maybe Seimen's have the same problem.

Peter

Drop your air flow to around 200-300 cc to get a H2 rich mixture.

Bville

Peter,

This is a process analyzer, not a laboratory GC. This design is quite different with few electronic devices to measure flow. Usually pressure regulators are the only means of controlling flows and measurements of flows are taken manually.

If the vent on the FID is blocked due to rust or some other blockage in the flame arrester, water may collect in the lines.

Verify your flows of H2 and air, check the air purifier is not contaminated from oil from your air pump which might be furnishing water into your air regulator and your FID.

best wishes,

Rod

Drop your air flow to around 200-300 cc to get a H2 rich mixture.

Bville

Hi Bville

Welcome to the forum.

When offering advice it is a good idea to check the date of the original post - a problem like this one that is two years old has either been solved in the meantime or the poster has moved on to other things.

Peter

The following is a step by step description of the automated process of detecting an extinguished flame and reigniting it.

(In the figure below the hydrogen carrier pressure for the right FID is increased for 1 second at 75 seconds in the method and then set back to the original pressure.)



(The image below displays the response observed on the detector when the flame is lit.)



In the method the peak is integrated as a group based on its height to generated a response factor.

(In the figure below the RFID Flame Indicator group is defined from 75 to 90 seconds and is configured to quantitate height.)



At the end of each cycle this value is stored in the results table in System Manager and is compared to the limit it is referenced to.

(In the image below the value in the column "limitapp & limitref" for the RFID Flame Indicator result is "1 && 923" meaning application 1, limit 923.)



(Below is the limit table for application 1. Limit 923 named Flame Out R_FID is configured as a lo value limit with a value of 10 and is referenced to application 1, alarm 923.)



When the Flame Indicator result value is compared to the value of the limit and found to be less the alarm referenced by the limit is activated.

When activated it posts an alarm to the flowing stream as well as enables the manual ignite digital output for the FID.

(Below is the alarmhandler table for application 1. Alarm 923 named !Flame Out R_FID is configured to enable digital ouput 230 when activated.)



When the alarm activates the manual ignite digital output for the FID it will begin to pulse the glow plug for 30 seconds and will also activate a second a second alarm which is referenced to a limit dependent upon the logical state of the manual ignite digital output for the the FID.

(In the application DO table below the R_FID manual ignite digital output 230 is configured to pulse for 30 seconds and references limit 922.)



When the second alarm called !R_FID Ignition Initiated is activated by the manual ignite digital output it posts the alarm and runs a Max Basic program.

(In the alarm handler table below it can be seen that alarm 922 !R_FID Ignition Initiated is configured to run program 923.)



The Max Basic program reduces the normal flame air pressure by half in order to create a more hydrogen rich fuel ratio to aid in the ignition of the flame.

(The program table is shown below and program 923 is named R_FID Flame Air Reduction and has a iarg value of 923. The value 923 points to the value of parameter 923 in the parameters table.)



(Parameter 923 in the figure below named RFID Air Setpoint AO has a value of 400 which is the analog output id for the R_FID Air Pressure Setpoint.)



(The current setpoint for the R_FID Air is 23.5 psig, therefore the program will reduce the pressure setpoint to 11.75 psig.)



At the end of the 30 second duration the ignitor has been pulsed the flame should now be lit.

However the FID air pressure is still at half its normal operating pressure.

Therefore the last task in the process is to set the air pressure back to its normal operating pressure in the method.

(The image below shows how the R_FID Air pressure is set at 30 seconds in the method.)



If you have any further questions or are still experiencing problems getting the flame to ignite please let me know.