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XBridge: Lowest Organic % that is OK

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:10 pm
by kerri
Hi everyone. I am getting ready to order new columns for our academic research lab. We have never used the XBridge family of columns, but I am interested in getting a couple of them because of their pH compatibility.. My question is what is the lowest percent organic that can be used on these columns efficiently (specifically the phenyl, of course the C18, and the RP18 if there will be a difference). I don't want to assume anything.......

Cheers,
Kerri

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:15 pm
by Uwe Neue
All can be run in 100% water. The EPG column wets cleanly due to the embedded polar, group, and phenyl packing are readily wetted by water as well. The C18 will work without headaches if you maintain pressure on the column when running a purely aqueous mobile phase.

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:26 pm
by Bryan Evans
What type of compounds will you be analyzing? What type of mobile phase conditions will you be using?

Running alkali mobile phase conditions may or may not be the best option.

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:16 pm
by kerri
Our lab develops methods for and analytically supports new investigational/preclinical drug screening/trials (predominantly anti-cancer). Our drug candidates are all different types, but lately have been weak bases. It's impossible for me to predict what new compounds we will be working on in the future, so I am looking to order new column types that cover a wide pH range.

Why are the XBridge columns not good for basic conditions?????

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:56 pm
by Bryan Evans
An alternative to using alkali eluent is Scherzo SM-C18 (multi-mode ODS). This column contains C18 + anion + cation ligands.
Below are some pharmaceutical applications:

Antideppresent drugs: http://www.imtaktusa.com/site_media/fil ... TI525E.pdf
Chlorpheniramine maleate: http://www.imtaktusa.com/site_media/fil ... TI531E.pdf
Tipepidine hibenzate: http://www.imtaktusa.com/site_media/fil ... TI532E.pdf
Clemastine fumarate: http://www.imtaktusa.com/site_media/fil ... TI533E.pdf
Hydroxyzine pamoate: http://www.imtaktusa.com/site_media/fil ... TI534E.pdf

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:58 pm
by Nalizer
Kerri,

from my experience xBridge is a very good column in terms of peak shape, stability and retention of basic analytes at higher pH. If you already have xBridge you might not need to buy any other columns if you decide to do basic analytes at higher pH. Gemini is another alternative to xBridge, but I like xBridge better. Although I never tried to run these columns at 0% organic.

P.S. .....and Brian is asking because he wants you to buy his columns. Any compound from the links above can be retained on good RP column, because most of the examples are very hydrophobic compounds

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:03 pm
by Uwe Neue
The statement "Running alkali mobile phase conditions may or may not be the best option" is nothing but the scaretactic of somebody who sells columns and but does not have this brand. We have run these columns in the alkaline pH range since they were created, and have published on this. Besides, these columns have other advantages as well, such as their stability and behavior under acidic conditions.

For a wide pH range, the XBridge columns are the best option on the market.

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:35 pm
by kerri
:)

I have had wonderful experiences with Waters columns, so I will definitely be buying a few of the XBridge buddies.

As for the % organic, it's not mentioned on the website that I saw. Normally if there is no mention of the minimum organic component, I will jut make sure to not go lower than maybe 10%... but since Uwe is on this message board I figured I'd quench my curiosity and ask.

Thank you Uwe, Bryan, and Nalizer.

Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:57 pm
by Bryan Evans
Hi Kerri -

As you can see, we have some sensitive people on this forum :)

I do have some questions:

Do your samples contain a mixture of polar/ionic and non polar compounds?
Will your solutes of interest degrade under alkali conditions?
Do your mixtures contain both acids and bases?
Do you prefer to avoid ion-pairing?

Nalizer: Sorry, but I respectfully disagree with your analysis.
Elution order for acids and bases changed based on eluent pH.
In addition, k' is larger for these solutes on Scherzo SM-C18 than
conventional ODS column.

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:10 am
by HW Mueller
Bryan, I wonder why you leave the statement ,


"Running alkali mobile phase conditions may or may not be the best option."

unexplained after kerri interpreted it to mean that X Bridge is no good for basic . . . .?

Is that what you meant then, X Bridge doesn´t withstand base?


Also, some years ago we had a "heated" discussion on mixed up mode columns, I now wonder whether there are some people out there with enough experience using such columns to comment on their performance with complicated matrices. Do they retain both hydrophobic and hydrophilic components? Now, all silica columns seem to be mixed mode. As we know some compounds cause trouble on these for known reasons. Do these mixed up columns not have an even larger problem of this type (for instance, on some, one can probably not control ionic sites via pH or maybe even via high salt concentrations??).

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:36 am
by grzesiek
"As for the % organic, it's not mentioned on the website that I saw. Normally if there is no mention of the minimum organic component, I will jut make sure to not go lower than maybe 10%"

great that you asked this question, I normally don,t go lower than 5% in such cases :)

Uwe are there any data on retention loss (or lack of) when wetting these columns for some time?

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:30 am
by Bryan Evans
Bryan, I wonder why you leave the statement ,


"Running alkali mobile phase conditions may or may not be the best option."

unexplained after kerri interpreted it to mean that X Bridge is no good for basic . . . .?

Is that what you meant then, X Bridge doesn´t withstand base?


Also, some years ago we had a "heated" discussion on mixed up mode columns, I now wonder whether there are some people out there with enough experience using such columns to comment on their performance with complicated matrices. Do they retain both hydrophobic and hydrophilic components? Now, all silica columns seem to be mixed mode. As we know some compounds cause trouble on these for known reasons. Do these mixed up columns not have an even larger problem of this type (for instance, on some, one can probably not control ionic sites via pH or maybe even via high salt concentrations??).
Hi Hans -

Thank you for your question. My intent was not to "cast a shadow of doubt" or use "scare tactics."
So perhaps I should have communicated that better. I simply wanted to bring up that there are other ways to change elution.

There's a little bit of economics 101 going on here right? Competition is a good thing. Competition does 2 things:

- facilitates innovation
- lowers overall costs

And I think 99.99999% of scientists on this forum understand that and appreciate that. Lower overall costs and new technology can help them achieve their objective.

--

On 'mixed up mode': We have an instruction manual that gives suggestions on this.

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:31 pm
by danko
Good words Bryan!

Competition is good! Innovation even better! But low price? Hm… I don’t know. I guess that’s what we all want. But I know people who’ll buy things, even they don’t need them, just because the price is low. And recently some people were fighting me for mentioning some products’ quality or rather lack of it. Low price was mentioned as a rationale for choosing one brand over another, more efficient, or whatever requirement.

But maybe we should realize that these tendencies are directly or indirectly lowering the quality of everything around us – including the quality of life. Because current manufacturers of high quality products, sooner or later, will be forced to produce rubbish in order to survive. And when all other manufacturers are doing just that, the competition will still be tough, but the products will be rubbish.
So, whether it’s columns, or equipment, or even methods (that are used to approve/release medicine, food, cloths etc.) we need to realize that quality is more important than price. Price is just a number, while quality is the essence of life itself.

Best Regards

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:59 pm
by Vlad Orlovsky
Hans,

The fact that SIELC survived and expended with mixed-mode columns since 2003 probably shows that mixed-mode is a valuable approach. Since we revived mixed-mode six years ago other companies introduced new mixed-mode columns (Dionex, for example, introduced at least 3 new mixed-mode columns in the last 2 years). There are around 50 publications from SIELC customers published in the last 3 years in journals on Primesep and Obelisc mixed-mode columns

Here is on the subject of basic compounds:
Just want to add my 2 cents here.

1. XBridge is one of the most stable columns on the market. We tested it extensively in the lab and it behaves very well at low and high organic and in wide pH range. It si suitable for analysis of basic compounds at higher pH. One of the problems is that at higher pH your acidic molecules are going to be fully ionized and unretained, same is true for zwitter-ionic compounds. It is impossible to retain both acidic and basic analytes in one run. You can develop two methods one for basic analytes at higher pH and one for acidic analytes at lower pH. The draw backs ob high pH separations are described here:
http://www.sielc.com/pdf/SIELC_June_2005.pdf

2. Another approach is to use one of the RP columns designed for retention of polar compounds in highly aqueous mobile phase (0% organic). There are bunch of them on the market. These columns will allow you to retain polar compounds within normal pH range (2-7), although you will need to play with pH to make compounds less polar. Retention is better than on regular RP columns, but in some cases is not great. It is hard to go below 0% organic :( to extend retention time.

3. Another approach is mixed-mode chromatography, where compounds are retained by combination of reversed-phase and ion-exchange mechanisms. Our company offers several mixed-mode columns:reversed-phase cation-exchange, reversed-phase anion-exchange and reversed-phase with both cation and anion-exchange groups. Presence of two or three mechanisms allows you to control retention time of different compounds independently and use low or moderate pH:
http://www.sielc.com/Technology_2D_Properties.html

You can retain wide range of compounds on the same column:
http://www.sielc.com/application_020.html
http://www.sielc.com/application_130.html

Including drugs and counter-ions:
http://www.sielc.com/pdf/SIELC_July_2009.pdf

In all our columns all functionalities are assembled on one ligand. It is not a physical mixture of two or more stationary phases (Scherzo SM-C18 from Imtakt, Hypersil Duet from Thermo). Physical mixtures of stationary phases were known for a long time, but they never gained too much popularity, due to few potential problems (change in selectivity due to different rate of hydrolysis/deactivation of two "mixed" phases during the use of the column, lower efficiency due to different nature of "mixed" phases, lower capacity, because only 50% of the phase particular phase is used, etc). When you have all functionalities on one molecule you are addressing these issues. Some of the mixed-mode columns (including our cation-exchange mixed-mode columns) have another draw back issue - you need to avoid alcohols. Alcohols can esterify stationary phase and change selectivity, but retention can be achieved at very low organic concentrations with the help of ion-exchange mechanism:
http://www.sielc.com/pdf/SIELC_April_2009.pdf

Here are few tips on method development for various analytes:
http://www.sielc.com/pdf/SIELC_August_2009.pdf

4. Reversed-phase column with ion-pairing reagent. This approach will allow you to retain polar ionizable compounds using corresponding ion-pairing reagents. The approach has some draw backs (not compatible with LC/MS, prolong equilibration, system dedication, etc.), but it widely used for decades. You can use any RP column.

5. HILIC columns. Good approach for polar analytes, will retain them very well. Have some draw backs, too - high consumption of ACN, low solubility of polar compounds at high organic, lower loadability in prep chromatography, poor peak shape in some cases. The cheapest and most economical way is to use bare silica column.

Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:58 pm
by Bryan Evans
Good words Bryan!

Competition is good! Innovation even better! But low price? Hm… I don’t know. I guess that’s what we all want. But I know people who’ll buy things, even they don’t need them, just because the price is low. And recently some people were fighting me for mentioning some products’ quality or rather lack of it. Low price was mentioned as a rationale for choosing one brand over another, more efficient, or whatever requirement.

But maybe we should realize that these tendencies are directly or indirectly lowering the quality of everything around us – including the quality of life. Because current manufacturers of high quality products, sooner or later, will be forced to produce rubbish in order to survive. And when all other manufacturers are doing just that, the competition will still be tough, but the products will be rubbish.
So, whether it’s columns, or equipment, or even methods (that are used to approve/release medicine, food, cloths etc.) we need to realize that quality is more important than price. Price is just a number, while quality is the essence of life itself.

Best Regards
Hi Danko -

Completely agree, quality is what's most important!