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Best prep columns

Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:28 pm
by mk12
I am working on natural products..Totally unknow compounds in extracts..what is your opinions is best general prep columns i should buy to load atleat 100 mg of extract at a time..i am thinking of water xbridge C18 col..please advise


thanks

Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:47 am
by Bryan Evans
Why a hybrid column? Will you be using alkali eluent? Most applications use acidic eluent.

If you're going to be using acidic eluent or neutral pH- go with silica.

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:36 am
by danko
Hi mk12,

Whatever you do, my advice is: Stay away from Phenomenex columns. Both mine and some of my former colleagues’ experiences with these columns are very bad. Some of the observations are; low efficiency, poor stability and if you – against all odds – succeed to develop an acceptable method, next time you’ll need a new column you’ll have a hard time finding one. The inconsistency (both inter- and intra- batch) is beyond believe. The brand is rubbish!

Best Regards

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:14 pm
by Larry Miller
I have to disagree with the previous post regarding Phenomenx columns. I've been using them for 5+ years and have not found any of the issues mentioned. My group uses them for nearly all of our reverse phase preparative purifcations using 2, 3 and 5 cm id columns. I see excellent correlation between their analytical and preparative columns. We've also standardized on Phenomenex gemini columns for our medicinal chemistry open access preparative systems with excellent results. Also the gemini columns are used under both acidic (TFA) and basic (NH4OH) conditions for our mass directed purification systems with great results. Column stability is fine; especially with the new axia column design

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:56 pm
by danko
Hi Larry,

It’s a difficult task to agree on quality parameters, so we might as well agree to disagree.
If one only sees one peak and based on that observation concludes that there is only one compound in a given sample, the case is clear: The best methodology (including column) is identified.
I know that the above “storyâ€

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:35 pm
by HW Mueller
Dancho, what´s a "professional brand" and what is not? Did someone do a classification?
Also, are you talking about prep. columns only?

Re: Best prep columns

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 3:56 pm
by SiliCycle
The XBridge in prep is very expensive and maybe not necessary is you don't have alcalin mobile phase. I suggest for you the SiliaChrom CN (cyano) this will work either in reversed and normal phases (lot of flexiblilty) and robust and low cost.

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:44 pm
by danko
Hi Hans,
Dancho, what´s a "professional brand" and what is not?
I have to admit; in this particular situation I use the term “professionalâ€

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:53 pm
by zokitano
Actually my experience is primarily based on analytical columns, but I’m not aware of the existence of a manufacturer who makes excellent preparative columns and lousy analytical ditto or vice versa.
With only good intentions, I suggest you not to use such hard words against an established column manufacturer without any solid evidence.

Best regards

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:28 pm
by danko
Not that I need to convince you, but what would you regard as solid evidence? I think I mentioned that I’ve conducted a number of experiments on which I base my evaluation/conclusion.
And again, the original poster was looking for some opinions and that was/is my opinion. If you have a different one, just announce it and that’s all.
Even better; if you can show me data suggesting that a Phenomenex column can outperform a corresponding (same dimensions, particle size etc.) Ace column for instance, you’ll really make me hold back.
Besides, what would you recommend me to concentrate on when I read the quote? Maybe you know of a manufacturer that makes good preparative- but not so good analytical- columns, or vice versa?

Best Regards

Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:13 pm
by Bruce Hamilton
The best prep column is one that performs the desired separation consistently, lasts a long time ( at least the duration of the research programme ), and matches the available budget.

In my limited experience, cyano columns fail the second criteria ( one Phenomenex, and one Varian prep column have died on me ). The column type I find most robust is a C18, and I would use a version of that phase, provided it achieves the first and third objectives.

Column brands. I've just counted my 119 active analytical columns. 44 are Phenomenex, and 41 are Waters. However, the age distribution is interesting, as I switched from rather expensive Waters and Agilent columns to Phenomenex columns ( often 30 - 50% of the cost ), about 5 years ago.

However, the C18 column I'm actually using for a sample today, is one of my original Phenomenex Luna columns, purchased in 1999. I'd hate to have to pull the logs for what has gone through that column over the past decade.

I've had columns fail prematurely from almost every major brand, was it the column, or was it me?. Who knows, but the reason Phenomenex has such a huge share ( 80+% ) of the NZ HPLC column market is that they have excellent technical support and will swap faulty column ( or offer discounts on replacements ).

Clearly NZ is an aberration in column markets, but the strong support and long lifetime of my Phenomenex columns is one reason why I have no hesitation in offering an alternative perception to Danko's.

Most people are aware that the original Phenomenex Gemini column was not as robust as it could have been, but my later NX version seems more durable ( ask me in a decade or so :-). I'm sure most brands have lemons at some stage of their history.

This forum is lucky that it is graced by column specialists from several companies, and they all survive because they fill differing niches. People should look at their need and cost/benefit of the column, and purchase the product that matches it.

It's very likely that high cost columns will be more durable, and capable of working in more aggressive environments, but sometimes there are cheaper columns that will match your need and budget.

If your company, or client, is willing to pay for long-term durability, then you have greater choice, and can purchase columns that will give long service. But if budgets are tight, then don't be afraid to try cheaper brands, provided they offer the support ( including exchange / credit ) policy, and will match your analytical need.

If I, or my clients, could afford to purchase Waters/Agilent/? columns, I'm sure they would - but at NZ$20,000 for a prep column ( versus $6,500 for the alternative Phenomenex column ), I routinely trade cost versus immediate need.

I have six prep columns ( using 20 - 50mm diameter criterion ), and killed two cyano columns, and one Synergi Max-RP ( C12 ) before switching to more robust C18 columns. For prepaartive work, the amount of sample crud probably determines durability...

My experience is clearly different to Danko's, and when I have the choice ( column is not specified ), the local branch of Phenomenex are always my first port of call.

Mention of various brands is purely indicative, and doesn't indicate that they have given me a discount to promote their product - but they should, and all other brands should give me free samples of columns for long term real-life evaluation purposes :-).

Please keep having fun,

Bruce Hamilton

PS. Before others point out the obvious, owning 120+ working columns, dating back to 1986, doesn't indicate greed ( he says hopefully :-)), or that additional columns would be unwelcome or unloved, because exploring new column technology is always fun.

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:20 am
by Bryan Evans
mk12 -

I have some time now, so I wanted to discuss this in more detail.

Here is how I believe we should view hybrid material:

Advantage:
- More durable than silica for high pH applications.
- Can result in different elution (by changing the hydrophobicity of analyte with alkali eluent)

Disadvantage:
- In silica, you have x # of active sites you can bond ligands to. In hybrid
material, manufacturers bond an organic group "R" to active site - so now
you have x - R active sites to bond ligands to.
- This results in low ODS ligand density.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now as to why this is a disadvantage:

In terms of reversed-phase, ODS (C18) offers 3 modes of retention (or molecular interaction):
- Electrostatic interaction (silanol activity / hydrophillic endcapping)
- hydrophobicity (ligand chain length)
- steric selectivity (ODS ligand density)

Think of these 3 items (plus column efficiency) as tools to help you put out fires (i.e. separate molecules).

Please see link below:
http://imtakt.com/TecInfo/TI252E.pdf

Unison UK-C18 & Cadenza CD-C18 are both fully endcapped, so we will use them in this discussion.

- Cadenza CD-C18 = high ODS ligand density. Can differentiate molecules based on shape.
- Unison UK-C18 = lower ODS ligand density than CD-C18. But, we gain electrostatic interaction.
- Hybrid materials offer low steric selectivity (low ODS ligand density) -
but offer no other advantage in terms of column selectivity.

This is one (of many) reasons why we recommend a well designed silica column for low to mid pH applications.

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:32 am
by Uwe Neue
As a manufacturer, I wanted to stay out of this discussion. How believable is it when a manufacturer proclaims that his columns are the best? However, there is a lot of nonsense that has been said here that I feel that this must be corrected.

First of all, the question was about preparative columns, for 100 mg at the time. I recommend a suitable C18, with 20 mm i.d. and a length of 100 mm. 50 mm will do also, but you may need to do more than one injection. The loadability is generally not terribly predictable, if one does not know the nature of the analyte. There is a 10-fold difference in loadability between an ionized analyte and a non-ionized analyte, even if you do your best with the buffer. This is due to the repulsion of charges, which reduces the loadabilty. I can send you papers on the subject if you want.

Which brings me to the reason why you may want to consider an XBridge column, if your analytes are basic and and will be charged under acidic conditions. If you can run the column under basic conditions, the charge goes away, and your loadability increases 10-fold. It appears that this does justify a higher price: if you do not have this ability, you would need to purchase column with 10x the volume to get the same loadability.

Next, there are a lot of things that a manufacturer needs to do to make fat columns work reliably. Waters has mastered this by using what we call the OBD technology. OBD stands for optimal bed density. The result of this technique is that the columns are rock-stable, which one cannot say for many other prep columns on the market.

You have many different packing materials that are packed into these columns. You have XBridge (5 chemistries), Sunfire, XTerra (4 chemistries), Atlantis (2 chemistries), and you can get the older chemistries custom-packed into the OBD hardware, if you so choose to.

The pH-stable packing XBridge has a high ligand density between 3.1 to 3.3 micromoles/m^2 (depending on the surface chemistry), and its retention and loadability are as good as that of a classical packing. Thus the statement by Bryan that hybrid packings have a lower ligand density is incorrect. I recommend to Brian to read his competitor's literature before making incorrect statements about competitive products.

I personally would NEVER use a cyano column for prep applications. First, cyano ligands hydrolyze much easier than C18 ligands, second, cyano columns tend to be unstable (as Bruce has seen), and third, I expect the loadability to be much lower than that of a C18.

In preparative chromatography as in analytical chromatography, there is no benefit in loadability that comes from residual silanols. Silanols create broad and tailing peaks for charged bases already at very very low load, so I can't see them to be of special benefit for preprative applications.

I am sure that forgot one thing or the other. My advise to MK12 is to get the literature from the manufacturers that are worth considering, and then COMPARE their products based on the described features, such as column stability and preparative loadability. Since prepartive columns are expensive, you want to make sure that you get your money's worth.

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 3:32 am
by Vlad Orlovsky
I am not going to say that our prep columns are the best :)....just two graphs on loadability. Basically even on analytical column you can load a lot (ionizable compounds). Loadability for mixed-mode columns for ionizable compounds is several folds compare to regular reversed-phase columns.
http://www.sielc.com/Technology_Prepara ... raphy.html
http://www.sielc.com/Products_Obelisc.html

Depending on the budget it might make sense to use whatever you have in your lab

Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:12 am
by Bryan Evans
It's a good idea to test your separation on a 5um analytical column before purchasing prep (maybe 150x4.6mm, 5um).

I suggest looking at Unison US-C18 (5um). Below is data comparing analytical vs. prep:
http://www.imtaktusa.com/site_media/fil ... TI186E.pdf