Quality of forum

[HW Mueller]

We don´t need to reinvent the world. There have been BS, MS, PhD and technicians handling different aspects, it used to be known who can be asked to do what fairly well.

[lmh]

True, and of course any certification system would suffer from the same problem as degrees in analytical chemistry: some people have them and are really good analysts, others have them, but can't be trusted to use a measuring tape without supervision...

[juddc]

Having a degree hasn't made me an analytical chemist. I was developing HPLC methods for a couple of years before I had any degree at all and my degree is in biochemistry anyway. Learning in the lab, making mistakes, fixing them, reading books, and having a broad range pf problems thrown my way (with deadlines) have made me a chromatographer. I'm tellin' ya, if you ever get the chance, live in a one guy lab. It can be stressful, but it's pretty cool too.

[JGK]

Having a degree hasn't made me an analytical chemist. I was developing HPLC methods for a couple of years before I had any degree at all and my degree is in biochemistry anyway. Learning in the lab, making mistakes, fixing them, reading books, and having a broad range pf problems thrown my way (with deadlines) have made me a chromatographer. I'm tellin' ya, if you ever get the chance, live in a one guy lab. It can be stressful, but it's pretty cool too.

Similar for me; As part of my degree I spent a year as a tech in a drug company where I learned the fundamentals of HPLC & GC, method development, radiochemistry and sample prep. After graduation, in later jobs, I became the "go to " guy mainly because the equipment didn't scare me (rather than any in depth knowledge of chemistry). Things just went on from there.

[WESAM]

Right now , I am confused !

People who are not expert please go to hell ! because as i understood the expert wants just expert to ask ? . Most of you ( EXPERTS ) used to ask and learned from questions .My professor is a very professional , one day he said to me there are some small questions i don't know about it .

Simply and frankly , If you don't like the type of any question just ignore it .

Regards
1st year undergraduate
Wesam

[tom jupille]

Code: Select all

Simply and frankly , If you don't like the type of any question just ignore it .

The issue isn't one of "liking" or disliking the question. The issue is one of frustration with things like useless post titles ("Please help me" or "Chromatography Question") or questions that don't include sufficient detail to be answered well ("My baseline is drifting; can anyone tell me why").

There is a fundamental difference between your professor and the people here: he gets *paid* to answer questions. We don't; we just want to be helpful and pass along knowledge.

[WESAM]

Yes Tom , I totally agree with you .But the qustion is how you can cure this ? especially , with this a very famous forum ( all the world is here ) this can be out of control .I like the post that was talking about ( Language , culture and the lose in translation as his wife said ) .Any way , hopfully my six months learning english can help me to gain knowledge from experts .

All the best

[tom jupille]

how you can cure this

Per my earlier comments in this thread, I don't think we can. I just recognize reality, go on doing the best I can, and hope that in some way my efforts are leaving the world (or at least the world of chromatography) a better place.

[Peter Apps]

Right now , I am confused !

People who are not expert please go to hell ! because as i understood the expert wants just expert to ask ? . Most of you ( EXPERTS ) used to ask and learned from questions .My professor is a very professional , one day he said to me there are some small questions i don't know about it .

Simply and frankly , If you don't like the type of any question just ignore it .

Regards
1st year undergraduate
Wesam

WESAM, - you are now a first year undergraduate, but a few weeks ago you were studying for an M. Sc: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13500&p=68158&hilit=WESAM#p68158.

Peter

[lmh]

Whether or not his student status is genuine, Wesam has made a genuine point, so here's an attempt at an answer:

Professionalism isn't about how much a person knows, or how much training a person has had. A first year undergraduate can be professional in the sense that although they may not know much yet, they use their knowledge in a professional manner and ask questions where they understand what they're asking (or they've tried to understand, at any rate). Their questions may be rather simple for the "grey-hairs" here, but they're questions that even the greyest of grey-hairs probably once asked himself/herself.

We're all "analysts in training" (nearly every time I go on a rant, someone much more experienced than me points out all the bits I've got wrong. I'm sure I irritate people here no end, but I'm grateful they still tell me I'm wrong).

Please, Wesam and others, ask what you need to know. At its best, perhaps this thread might help a few people to realise what the grey-hairs would like to see in a question in order to maximise their chance of answering it well.

I personally have nothing against the professionally-minded student, and I doubt anyone else here would object either. Frankly, I'm grateful for some very simple questions from time to time, because it makes me feel less guilty about asking some fairly basic stuff myself (being someone who lacks the experience to match the grey hairs that are appearing...)

[Peter Apps]

Right now , I am confused !

People who are not expert please go to hell ! because as i understood the expert wants just expert to ask ? . Most of you ( EXPERTS ) used to ask and learned from questions .My professor is a very professional , one day he said to me there are some small questions i don't know about it .

Simply and frankly , If you don't like the type of any question just ignore it .

Regards
1st year undergraduate
Wesam

lmh is right, WESAM does raise a valid point, and it deserves more attention than I originally gave it.

I too used to (and still do) ask questions, when I first started in a chromatography lab they came thick and fast. At that time though it was considered unacceptable to ask questions when it was possible to find the answer in the instruction manual, a text book, or the scientific literature. I presume that this was based on consideration for other people; everyone was busy and so why should I go and use up their time asking something that I could just as well have looked up for myself ?. At a trivial level; we had a large store room with all sorts of useful hardware in dozens of drawers. Through long familiarity I knew more or less where nearly everything was. Instead of going and looking, some of my colleagues would be continually asking me where things were, and I would take them to the store and show them. The next week they would need the same thing again, and the process would be repeated ! I found this quite irritating, so I labelled all the drawers. The same people still came to ask the same questions ! My standard answer to "where is X" became "In the drawer labelled X". I never really fathomed why some people just went and looked for themselves, while others found it necessary to ask me (or one of the other lookers) every single time they wanted something. At a basic level it saved them a few minutes while costing me the same, and why should they worry about my work being interrupted ? Maybe they just needed a few minutes of social interaction in an otherwise bleak day, and pestering me was a convenient way to get it ?

Does anyone else see parallels with the forum ? Has there been a change in culture, so that now nobody else's time is worth anything ?

So, WESAM, when you ask your professor a question, does he just give you the complete answer straight away (which is thoroughly discredited as a way of teaching anybody anything) or does he talk you through the process so that you can understand what lies behind it, and then use that understanding to answer other, similar questions ? Which approach do you think would be most valuable in the long term ?.

The problem is not that people are asking questions (that is a big part of what the forum is for), but the form in which questions are asked.

For me, the worst are the questions that contain so little detail that it is impossible to answer them without asking for more detail, and I have known posts that have gone back and forward with information trickling in one bit at a time -Q "what column do you have ?" A "Agilent, 25 m", ...... Q what stationary phase and what is the column diameter, A .............., then we get to the inlet, bit by bit etc etc. It would take three of four days to get a complete description of the hardware.

Another sticky area is posters who ask questions that they could have answered themselves with a few minutes of searching in the archives (or an instruction manual or text book). Apparently, in their world it is better to take up an "expert's" time than to do it themselves.

Both of these areas are covered by a sticky - which presumably new posters either do not read, or read and then decide to ignore.

I am also worried when really basic (I mean school level chemistry, strightforward arithmatic, or routine instrument maintenance and QC) questions are posed by people who are apparently analysing human medicines - what are the consequences of their generating erroneous results ?, and should we be troubleshooting sight unseen based on incomplete information ?

WESAM, I had taken your advice in advance of your giving it - I no longer get into threads until there is sufficient detail on the problem. Nonetheless, if all the "experts" on the forum just ignored the type of question that this thread as a whole is about, then the place of the "experts" would be taken by others scarcely more qualified and competent than those posting the questions - there are plenty of sites like that already - and I fail to see how that will benefit anyone.

Peter

[WESAM]

Thanks

[Peter Apps]

Hi WESAM

Thank you for being so candid - it is exactly that kind of information on the poster's background that would help the "experts" pitch their answers at the proper level.

Peter

[lmh]

Can I add a comment? Our local university, here in the uk, has attached to it a sort of "high school" to address exactly the sorts of problems that Wesam has raised. Students join it one year before their degree will begin, and spend the year in a mixture of English language tuition and studying the subjects that they will later follow at univeristy; the aim is to cover any discrepancies between the syllabus that they may have had in their country of origin, and the typical A-level syllabus that Universities in the UK would assume.

Of course the down-side for the student is an extra year's fees. But for those students who are able to use it, it seems to help them to "hit the ground running" in year 1 of their degree, and it helps them get the most benefit they can from their time in a university.

If anyone reading this has influence, please do use it to push for similar institutions near you!

[Don_Hilton]

The only questions I do not like are those for which the answers will be turned in for a grade (and we see them ocasionally) or the expectation that we will provide the answers to method development work upon demand.

I've been helped much along the way and will gladly help others along the way. I do expect someone asking for help to particpate in the process and clarify the question, if needed. And I expect the questioner to be willing to take a direction and continue digging out information on his/her own.