Chromatography Forum

What is wrong with Bruker SCION? In terms of specs (sensitivity, vacuum system perfomance, ion source and pre-filter design) it looks quite interesting. Do you have any negative experience?

Please read for a start: http://chromforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18736

I've had my share fair of dealings with Bruker (FTIR spectroscopy mostly) and have found them to be on the edge between stupid, berating and dare-out incompetent.

To give you an idea just how bad those people are, I'll give you all the details:
We got our new ALPHA directly at Bruker's Ettlingen facilities. It has all shiny accessories, including a diamond ATR. When said accessory was connected to the ALPHA, the data system crashed as well as the spectrometer (Error condition, no connection to instrument).

So the ALPHA was crashed... and nobody knew why. They got a technician from the floor below the demo office who took the ATR unit with him and did a complete reset on the ALPHA.

It now recognized the sample compartment again. After around 30 min. we got the ATR back, working again (I don't know if they exchanged it, didn't write the initial serial number down).

The cause for the error was simple (I was told by the technician): They do the soldering work of the connectors with heat guns. Said heat guns have been operated at a wrong temperature for two weeks (!) causing faulty soldering joints. One of those joints broke when the ATR was connected to the ALPHA.

Bruker didn't do jack about that... they just kept silent and seemingly hoped to get away with it.
Now image the ATR would have broken down at our facilities... or your shiny new SCION would.

But it doesn't stop there: I found organic contamination in the single-channel spectrum as well as that the ALPHA didn't pass its OQ test.

They took two weeks(!) to find out that the wave number of the laser had changed (aging of the laser diode). According to the docs, the spectrometer should have complained on its own... nada.
A manual change did the trick.

Regarding the contamination, I was told it's polishing wax from the manufacturing of the mirrors.
I could prove that this is a lie as I have extensive experience with optical glasses (the cause is most probably soldering flux from the spot repair at Bruker). So be precise: They are gold coated. Gold hates organic contamination and shows with a complete loss of adhesion.
They never called back.

As the last nail we agreed on an update to OPUS 7.0 (we payed one year in advance!)... which was sent after I have been insisting and nagging for months.

But there's more: A university department I know runs a 400 MHz NMR. Their electronics did burn (as in flames!) two times now (I can give details about that too if desired).

This is just a small glimpse of what Bruker is capable of doing to its customers.
Once you're their hostage (by owning one of their products) they use it to taunt and extort you.
Don't let this happen to you!

What is wrong with Bruker SCION? In terms of specs (sensitivity, vacuum system perfomance, ion source and pre-filter design) it looks quite interesting. Do you have any negative experience?

Please read for a start: http://chromforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18736

I've had my share fair of dealings with Bruker (FTIR spectroscopy mostly) and have found them to be on the edge between stupid, berating and dare-out incompetent.
Don't let this happen to you!

HbJ, thank you for detailed answer. But don't you think that a lot of people on this forum and outside of it can tell similar story about intstruments from other company. Just for an example. I had Agilent 5973 with drift in mass scale just because bad signal cable (looks like old HDD IDE cable) from mainbord to quadropole. Two their service engineers tried to figured it out for two months, pushing us to buy a new quadrupole drive board. And the problem was just in bad cable. But I will never say that they have poor quality or service. Just unlucky case.

Well, as you can see from my description, it's not just *one* fail, but a complete epic fail from start to end, combined with bad craftsmanship.

They used a wrong soldering temperature for two weeks, producing maybe hundreds of faulty units with hidden defects. Guess who's to pay for that? Exactly, the customer will be told that it's just bad luck... but for just some four-figure number all will be well again. They use their own incompetence as source for money! That's disgusting.

They out-right lied to me to excuse their contaminated ALPHA (from the start!). Instead of admitting that they contaminated the unit with soldering flux they told me some crap about polishing wax for the mirrors. Such things insult my intelligence and are a sign of malevolence. Can you tell ONE similar story from Agilent or Thermo?

Agilent has had its issues too (5890 injector cooling fan killing the mainboard, 5975C "inert" instead of getting it right the first time etc.) but those are not systematic failures.

Now see this in contrast to what Bruker did with me in just one transaction (and is still doing, btw.), not to mention the utter uselessness of their service I see in my direct vicinity.

And you ignore the report about lacking performance of the SCION I linked at the beginning of my report.

Well, as you can see from my description, it's not just *one* fail, but a complete epic fail from start to end, combined with bad craftsmanship.

They used a wrong soldering temperature for two weeks, producing maybe hundreds of faulty units with hidden defects. Guess who's to pay for that? Exactly, the customer will be told that it's just bad luck... but for just some four-figure number all will be well again. They use their own incompetence as source for money! That's disgusting.

They out-right lied to me to excuse their contaminated ALPHA (from the start!). Instead of admitting that they contaminated the unit with soldering flux they told me some crap about polishing wax for the mirrors. Such things insult my intelligence and are a sign of malevolence. Can you tell ONE similar story from Agilent or Thermo?

Agilent has had its issues too (5890 injector cooling fan killing the mainboard, 5975C "inert" instead of getting it right the first time etc.) but those are not systematic failures.

Now see this in contrast to what Bruker did with me in just one transaction (and is still doing, btw.), not to mention the utter uselessness of their service I see in my direct vicinity.

And you ignore the report about lacking performance of the SCION I linked at the beginning of my report.

You clearly have had a bad experience with Bruker's spectroscopy division, and equally clearly you are using this opportunity to get some payback. This is not particularly useful, not least because Bruker's GC-MS operation was acquired from Varian, and it includes instrument designs that are entirely fit for purpose and people whose expertise I have the greatest respect for.

And I can tell stories that vary from minor slip ups to ruthlessly exploitative sharp practise about every single instrument company that I have ever dealt with - but I am not gong to because none of them are any more relevant to the current discussion than your tale of woe.

And before you ask, no I don't work for Bruker.

Peter

You clearly have had a bad experience with Bruker's spectroscopy division, and equally clearly you are using this opportunity to get some payback. This is not particularly useful, not least because Bruker's GC-MS operation was acquired from Varian, and it includes instrument designs that are entirely fit for purpose and people whose expertise I have the greatest respect for.

And I can tell stories that vary from minor slip ups to ruthlessly exploitative sharp practise about every single instrument company that I have ever dealt with - but I am not gong to because none of them are any more relevant to the current discussion than your tale of woe.

And before you ask, no I don't work for Bruker.

Peter

I would never assume you're working for Bruker... too upright And as I heard African Wild Dogs don't buy much scientific equipment

Now if I get you right, your argument is as follows: All instrument manufacturers are lying, extorting bastards. So we should keep hush about it. In my primary field of expertise this would lead to immediate termination. Misbehavior is to be exposed ruthlessly to warn people about those tactics and force manufacturers to improve. And strangely, with all my dealings with instrument manufacturers, only Bruker showed those tactics. Thermo and Agilent were a bit petulant sometimes, but never out-right lied to me or extorted me of money.

Regarding ex-Varian, now Bruker "great designs", I can't stop laughing: That must be the reason why the "great" Galaxie (see some nice bugs on this board with "overflowing" method files e.g.) is to be killed off completely. Yes, must be a great design ahead of its time (NOT).
At said university (my alma mater), they have a Saturn 2000. When they asked for a CI refit (they desperately need this), they were given the finger by Varian and told to buy a new GC/MS (with 10% discount for trading in the old instrument). After that, the salesman laughed at them. So it was decided to ban Bruker from further biddings.
What a great company culture! The Thermo/Finnigan Magnum/ITS 40 can be retrofitted to CI for around 1000 EUR (with some spares even less), the Varian 2000 obviously not.

So the bottomless company "culture" of Bruker has infected ex-Varian too, obviously. You might respect that, I don't.

My motivation to post my experiences is simple: To prevent more suffering. Equipment has to work (with proper care), not to constantly leech your nerves and wallet.
Anybody can buy anything s/he wants (be it a SCION, a 5975C or a Bobby-Car), but when I've experienced numerous times just how Bruker works, I take the time to raise a flag and say: "Watch out!".

We get the point on the bad experience.

I am remided of advice given to me by a lawyer, who claims to have been taught this in law school:

Don't beat a dead horse - lest it get up and walk away on you.

We get the point on the bad experience.

I am remided of advice given to me by a lawyer, who claims to have been taught this in law school:

Don't beat a dead horse - lest it get up and walk away on you.

In that case, one should ask if you've given up to improve your user experience or just got used to rampant, systematic incompetence and greed.

I'm out of this.

Wow. Looks like I missed a good "discussion" this weekend. There is a similar story of vendor malpractice floating around the lab where I work about the first Waters LC-QTOF. I have similar experience with Thermo on their first edition of the DFS (a newer version of the Finnigan MAT95). I think at some point all vendors make a big "Woops" with an instrument they design from the ground up.

All that matters to me is how they try and redeem themselves and "get-back-up" from the failure. In my case with Thermo, I would say they've done a lot for us but not enough. But if I were going to buy another HR mass spec for LC I would opt for the Thermo Orbitrap due to the great things I hear about it. I found out that Thermo's DFS and Orbitrap divisions aren't even managed by the same country (DFS is all Germany and Orbi is now US operated and built). I'm not trying to bash Germany with that either. I just think that being separated in a company allows them to vary in the customer service and quality standards. Maybe this is the same case for Bruker. I have no experience with them, however, so I will not judge. I will go based off of reviews and personal experiences such as yours, HbJ, and others who may have had great experiences. It's a mixed bag of customers but I would definitely not want to share the experience you've had.

I haven't seen it yet, but I'm sure I will live to see Agilent create a "total failure" as well (hopefully not in the LC, GC, or MS divisions).

A word about the Orbitrap: I've recently seen one in action and it's, well, damn near perfection. The people at said site are very satisfied with it too

Dear Hbj
Sorry you seem to have an on going issue with my colleagues in Germany but insulting everyone in Bruker around the world is not in my opinion justified.

Regarding ex-Varian, now Bruker "great designs", I can't stop laughing: That must be the reason why the "great" Galaxie (see some nice bugs on this board with "overflowing" method files e.g.) is to be killed off completely. Yes, must be a great design ahead of its time (NOT).
At said university (my alma mater), they have a Saturn 2000. When they asked for a CI refit (they desperately need this), they were given the finger by Varian and told to buy a new GC/MS (with 10% discount for trading in the old instrument). After that, the salesman laughed at them. So it was decided to ban Bruker from further biddings

You seem to have got the wrong message

Galaxie is a product split between Agilent and Bruker. Agilent are killing the product and Bruker are using the software, upgrading it and re-naming it Compass. I watch for issues on Bruker products on this board and have missed issues with Galaxie, but I see a lot of issues and problems with other vendors software

The Varian Saturn 2000 is an Agilent product now. Did they ask a Varian rep ? If so nothing to do with Bruker ? An Agilent rep you are trying to tar us with ? If you asked your Alpha rep he should not have laughed but it would be to Agilent that you would have had to go..

Having been in the industry for over 20 years I have seen and heard of stories of woe from pretty much every manufacturer. Within the instrument suppliers there are stories of really nasty customers too, not that I am suggesting this is true in your case. Just be careful that what you say is the plain truth as extreme anti vendor sentiments are unlikely to aid you in progression within the industry.

Dear Hbj
Sorry you seem to have an on going issue with my colleagues in Germany but insulting everyone in Bruker around the world is not in my opinion justified.

You seem to have got the wrong message

Galaxie is a product split between Agilent and Bruker. Agilent are killing the product and Bruker are using the software, upgrading it and re-naming it Compass. I watch for issues on Bruker products on this board and have missed issues with Galaxie, but I see a lot of issues and problems with other vendors software

The Varian Saturn 2000 is an Agilent product now. Did they ask a Varian rep ? If so nothing to do with Bruker ? An Agilent rep you are trying to tar us with ? If you asked your Alpha rep he should not have laughed but it would be to Agilent that you would have had to go.

Having been in the industry for over 20 years I have seen and heard of stories of woe from pretty much every manufacturer. Within the instrument suppliers there are stories of really nasty customers too, not that I am suggesting this is true in your case. Just be careful that what you say is the plain truth as extreme anti vendor sentiments are unlikely to aid you in progression within the industry.

I just called the guy and the confirmed it. That's easy as at said time, Varian was still an independent company and was ripped apart some weeks later. They equaled ex-Varian with Bruker (not my department) though the ban seems to be related to the two-times burned down NMR also.
And the main point of my argument was to prove that Varian does and did not have "great designs" (as a CI refit seems to be impossible).

And renaming a software while killing support for the predecessor is hostile in my book, but rip-off seems to be common in the analytical industry as Microsoft can support Windows XP ten years and gets out patches every month while data systems are doomed after some years (OPUS gets a new version every two years with EOLing all previous versions). And regarding mind-boggling issues with Galaxie, here's just one recent example: http://chromforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=19751. Growing a method file until it explodes in the face of the user... great design!

Please note that I'm not anti-vendor at all: Owning an IFS 28 I was satisfied with Bruker's products until the ALPHA arrived.

And lastly: Did my bad karma kill the ALPHA? No... it was incompetence and negligence on Bruker's side (won't repeat myself more here).
I'm doing an awful lot of professional interaction in my job and buy machinery of all kinds (low six-figure EUR amounts) every year and I've NEVER, EVER seen something like Bruker did with our company. There can always be hickups but I'm allergic to being vomited into my lap (to speak figuratively).

[EDIT] One colleague I did show this thread just commented: "SOS" means for Bruker "Save our sales". No comment
And Bruker has an order to stay away from the university department I bought the IFS 28 from (it was more like a gift ) as they ripped off the prof there badly. He now has ten Thermo FTIRs