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Polymyxine B sulphate variable retention time

Discussions about HPLC, CE, TLC, SFC, and other "liquid phase" separation techniques.

37 posts Page 2 of 3

A silly question, do you premix the whole solvent. Or have you your system mixing the aqeous phase with acetonitrile?

Hi Ace,

How many consecutive injections is your observation based on? And is this 0.4 min a consistent retention time decreasing or does the retention time go the other way (increasing) as well?
Finally, when you removed the sodium sulfate from the mobile phase, did you lose the retention of polymyxine B completely (i.e. eluted with the void volume) or did it just get shorter and kept decreasing with every consecutive injection?

Best Regards
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Dancho Dikov

Hi Ace,

How many consecutive injections is your observation based on? And is this 0.4 min a consistent retention time decreasing or does the retention time go the other way (increasing) as well?
Finally, when you removed the sodium sulfate from the mobile phase, did you lose the retention of polymyxine B completely (i.e. eluted with the void volume) or did it just get shorter and kept decreasing with every consecutive injection?

Best Regards
Dear Danko,

My buffer is mixed by the HPLC and UPLC systems.

The observations for my testings are based on 4 replicates, all injected with 40minutes inbetween. These were still decreasing, but with the original method (as described in previous postings) we saw increasing also.

When I removed the sodium sulphate, the retention time decreased from 8.6 minutes to 3.9 minutes (on UPLC BEH Shield RP18)
To get some more retention I decreased ACN concentration from 20 to 15%, but my peaks were so ugly that I didn't check the variability of the retention time.

I put up some runs during the weekend and will post the results monday.

Thanks to everyone

Ace

Dear Ace,

I looked up the EP and the state that for the method should be used a base deactivated and end capped C18 column. On the other hand you mentioned that Supelcosil ABZ was recommended which is a polar embedded C18. I believe the BEH Shield is also a polar embedded phase.
Do you have any other C18 phases in the lab that you could try? I doubt that the columns you are testing having a problem, but the mobile phase together with a polar embedded group might create some additional interactions that are harder to control. I believe my suggestion is aiming in the same direction that Uwe Neue gave.

Dirk

Dear Ace,

I looked up the EP and the state that for the method should be used a base deactivated and end capped C18 column. On the other hand you mentioned that Supelcosil ABZ was recommended which is a polar embedded C18. I believe the BEH Shield is also a polar embedded phase.
Do you have any other C18 phases in the lab that you could try? I doubt that the columns you are testing having a problem, but the mobile phase together with a polar embedded group might create some additional interactions that are harder to control. I believe my suggestion is aiming in the same direction that Uwe Neue gave.

Dirk
Hi Dirk,

Uwe indeed suggested the same, and proposed a BEH C18, instead of the BEH Shield RP18. I tried this column, with the same, known result....

Ace

Ace,

I am not so sure if the Hybrids from there characteristics always behave like standard base silica materials. I have seen such materials sometimes showing some unexpected polar selectivity. Maybe a little bit older or more classic C18 might help.

Dirk

I am not only puzzled, but also confused. Did the retention time always change up and down, or sometimes only down? Did the rt variation (up or down or both) occur with all the columns and mobile phases tried? The corticoids were always present and never showed this rt variance?
Also, what is this 50mmol phosphate buffer + sodium phosphate?
Your analyte is a mixture? Did it give the same pattern of peaks under all conditions? Did the pattern change with rt changes under the same conditions?
Are you shure that the corticoids didn´t have a short enough rt to obliterate rt changes for them?
I don´t know anymore whether these were isocratic runs, if they were, why dont you premix the mobile phase and see what happens?

Another side remark: It is very puzzling to see many times, as here also, that people ask for help, but dont bother to answer all the question of people who are willing to assist.

One more question:
Do you have a possibly strong incompatibility between the pH/ion strength of sample solvent and mobile phase?

I am not only puzzled, but also confused. Did the retention time always change up and down, or sometimes only down? Did the rt variation (up or down or both) occur with all the columns and mobile phases tried? The corticoids were always present and never showed this rt variance?
Also, what is this 50mmol phosphate buffer + sodium phosphate?
Your analyte is a mixture? Did it give the same pattern of peaks under all conditions? Did the pattern change with rt changes under the same conditions?
Are you shure that the corticoids didn´t have a short enough rt to obliterate rt changes for them?
I don´t know anymore whether these were isocratic runs, if they were, why dont you premix the mobile phase and see what happens?

Another side remark: It is very puzzling to see many times, as here also, that people ask for help, but dont bother to answer all the question of people who are willing to assist.

One more question:
Do you have a possibly strong incompatibility between the pH/ion strength of sample solvent and mobile phase?
Lot of questions, I will answer them one by one:

In the past, with the original method, the retention time changed sometimes down, and then increased. Most of the time we only see a decrease. In my test runs, I only test 4 times 40 minutes, which always gave a decrease for my Polymyxine peaks (4 peaks), but not for the corticoid (which is inbetween the 4 peaks).
The rt variation occured with all the columns tested, but as said before with the mobile phase without the sodium sulphate I didn't saw the decrease, but maybe the test time was too short. The runs were put on the HPLC, I will post the results on monday.

50mmol phosphate buffer + sodium sulphate:
6.8g KH2PO4 + 900ml H2O, brought to pH 2.3, added 4.6g sodium sulphate and then added H2O till 1000ml.
(I really added sodium sulphate instead of the sodium phosphate I mentioned in 1 post, sorry for the confusion).

My analyte is a mixture of 4 polymyxines and a corticoid. I'm not sure what you mean with the pattern of peaks, but the peaks were more or less consitent within all the experiments, no dramatic shift from one peak to another.

As the corticiod is in the middle of the 4 polymyxine peaks, I had noticed the difference for the rt if it was shifting, but all the peaks around the corticoid were shifting, but not the corticoid.

It are isocratic runs, but in the future this method will be used on a more complex mixture which needs a gradient after the isocratic part, that's why we are mixing with the pump. Also, if it was a system failure, the corticoid should have been shifting.

About your side remark: I was pretty sure that I answered the whole question you are talking about, but after reading back, I see that there is a part of my post missing. I do apologize for this.

The sample solvent is 100% water, so the possibility of a ion strength incompatibility is available. I will check this on monday.

Thanks for your time

Ace

If the polymixine peaks don´t overlap my thoughts on that are not viable.
One can imagine that there are small variations in mixing which the corticoid doesnt see (does it shift when the Na2SO4 is left out?), but resulting shifts in pH have a visible effect on the polymixine.
It will be interesting to see whether the mentioned pH incompatibility is doing something.

No need to apologize for the time, it is just more fun when one understands the problem sufficiently.

I had one occasion in the past when I tested amitriptyline at pH7 on a commercial polar-embedded column. I found that it took several hours for the retention to be stabilized. Uwe mentioned that the retention shift might have something to do with the column aging (more silanol groups over time). Another way to look at it: is it possible that your analyte is "too sensitive" and requires the column to be "fully" conditioned to give stable retention?

Therefore, you might want to run the test for long enough time and examine the rentention time trend. This way you might find the equilibration time which hopefully won't be prohibitedly too long.
Xiaodong Liu

I put up some runs before the weekend with the buffer, with the Na2SO4 left out, but the shifting occurs again.

About the long enough equilibration time: in the past I did runs for more than 2 days, with still shifting retention times...

For today I will test the effect of the ionic strength of my samples, and a premixed mobile phase.

Ace

Hi Ace,

I think you need to increase the sodium sulfate concentration dramatically. I will suggest 3 times increase (i.e. ca. 0.1 mol/L).

Best Regards
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Dancho Dikov

Doesn't the method require the sample solvent to be 80:20 H2O:CH3CN?. I'd also try dissolving the sample in the mobile phase itself.

I'd be less keen to continue to play with buffer strength, once you've confirmed that it's not fixing the problem.

My suspicion is that the repeated injections of samples is affecting retention.
I'd try injecting varying numbers of mobile phase blanks between samples and seeing if the retention time variations change.

I'd also email the EP experts, and ask them for suggestions. The database also suggests a Waters Symmetry column, and I'd try that.

Please keep having fun,

Bruce Hamilton

I'd be less keen to continue to play with buffer strength, once you've confirmed that it's not fixing the problem.
I wonder how it’s been confirmed. By omitting the sodium sulfate and observing considerable retention loss? :?

Best Regards
Learn Innovate and Share

Dancho Dikov
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