Exam questions: are we passing or failing?

[lmh]

Today I notice two threads in the HPLC section that are blatant test questions, both posted by people who joined the forum within the last 2 days, and who have posted just that one question. One of the two has already attracted a range of very helpful answers.

Given that coursework is often assessed, is it reasonable that we provide the answers to people's homework?

[Jade.Barker]

I second your suspicion -

If someone is asking homework questions (for a grade) it would be sporting to get a disclaimer, or at least go through the trouble to paraphrase so it doesn't "sound" like homework...

[JGK]

On other forums, which do include a large amount of student posters ,the more experienced posters refrain from answering this type of question until the original poster shows an attempt at answering.

After that, help and suggestions follow allowing the poster to work through the problem themselves rather than being "spoon fed" answers.

Persistent offenders expecting their "homework to get done for them usually find their threads get "Locked" quickly.

[Bruce Hamilton]

I'm more concerned about the poster's inability to disguise their exam questions. That suggests extravagant laziness or incompetence.

I generally just avoid answering the question, but the temptation to provide wrong answers also exists, and is how I respond to similar cut and pasted emails.

I become more disconcerted when people claim they are researchers, and can't find freely-available information after significant clues are provided.

Bruce Hamilton

[lmh]

Glad everyone agrees. I'm fairly new to this forum, and didn't know how it handles the homework issue. Thanks, all!

[JGK]

I'm more concerned about the poster's inability to disguise their exam questions. That suggests extravagant laziness or incompetence.

I generally just avoid answering the question, but the temptation to provide wrong answers also exists, and is how I respond to similar cut and pasted emails.

I become more disconcerted when people claim they are researchers, and can't find freely-available information after significant clues are provided.

Bruce Hamilton

Having read articles published in Canada recently where students feel entitled to good grades if they either:

Attend most of the classes;
Read most of the "required" reading;
Hand in partial assignments.

I'm inclined to agree.

[Bruce Hamilton]

Having read articles published in Canada recently where students feel entitled to good grades if they either:

Attend most of the classes;
Read most of the "required" reading;
Hand in partial assignments.

I'm inclined to agree.

Gosh, they are diligent.

Here in New Zealand ( which has moved to partial "user pays" tertiary education over the past two decades ), some students believe paying the fees is all that is required...

If they don't pass, it's unjust, because the institution was not delivering the purchased product.

Bruce Hamilton.

[JGK]

Having read articles published in Canada recently where students feel entitled to good grades if they either:

Attend most of the classes;
Read most of the "required" reading;
Hand in partial assignments.

I'm inclined to agree.

Gosh, they are diligent.

Here in New Zealand ( which has moved to partial "user pays" tertiary education over the past two decades ), some students believe paying the fees is all that is required...

If they don't pass, it's unjust, because the institution was not delivering the purchased product.

Bruce Hamilton.

That is probably the reason in this case too.

However, this sense of entitlement without effort is being reinforced at every turn with the seeming emphasis on not failing students.

Consequently, when they appear in the work environment and are told that their efforts are unacceptable it is always someone else's fault.

[Russ]

I am shocked, yes shocked, at the "mean-spirited" attitude here. On a serious note, I have been appalled at the seeming lack of competence in basic algebra from some of the chemists/biologists I have had a hand in hiring. I kept thinking maybe I should have a basic math test be a part of the interview process.

[tom jupille]

I know I'm an old curmudgeon, but it did come as a shock to find out that fully half of students are below average.

Back to the original topic, the "exam question" syndrome has been with us since the beginning of the Forum in 1999. It tends to peak in December and June, for some reason , and it's why we set up the "student projects" board. Over the years, a lot of people have had the patience (and taken the time) to help me find answers to ignorant (by their standards!) questions from me, and I feel a responsibility to do the same for others.

That does not mean doing homework for students, and certainly does not mean giving them answers to their take-home tests. I know that I understand (and retain the understanding) better when I have put some effort into getting the answer, and I assume most people are similar. When it is likely (from context) that it's an exam question, I'll usually give a link or a hint on where to find the answer. Or, ask "let me know what *you* think the answer is, and I'll give you feedback".

The risk, of course, is that someone who is *not* a student may be offended or feel they are being patronized.

[JGK]

I am shocked, yes shocked, at the "mean-spirited" attitude here. On a serious note, I have been appalled at the seeming lack of competence in basic algebra from some of the chemists/biologists I have had a hand in hiring. I kept thinking maybe I should have a basic math test be a part of the interview process.

I used to do this, I set a basic four question test (high school/pre university level and chemistry based) that should take anyone less than 5 minutes. I stopped as pitifully few graduate level interviewees could complete it never mind get correct answers.

[Bruce Hamilton]

I know I'm an old curmudgeon, but it did come as a shock to find out that fully half of students are below average.

The risk, of course, is that someone who is *not* a student may be offended or feel they are being patronized.

You sure that your shock was justified? I suspect they are usually below the median.

I use interviews to ascertain if people are compatible with our team, not competence - which usually is shown by experience/responsibilities ( seen in CV ) and is also revealed by discussion with supplied work referees.

Bruce Hamilton

[gcguy]

mmm students and newly graduated people.....
During the course of many an interview when I ask basic technical questions about HPLC and GC there is a complete lack of any sort of understanding. Yet their CV/resume states clearly that they have had extensive experience of both techniques at university!!!

On further questioning it usually turns out that they had run some samples on an instrument that someone else set up for them. This is worrying, does this mean that there is a lack of interest from the students or are the staff at universities not interested in teaching?

GCguy

[krickos]

Hi

Well would not put too much blame on students but sure regardless what you study there are always a bunch that want to take short cuts rather than actually try to understand/learn.

I am bit more concerned about the teaching. Universities tends to brag about about the "high end" equipment they have and students may do chromatography-MS analysis quite early on, basic structure elucidation with NMRs etc. If basic understanding from the start is sacrificed for walking up to set up high end instruments, yes there will be a problem.
Can take a former collegue who had been doing extensive LC analysis during her Ph D work. Well, it turned out that she was a wiz on Millenium (so we put her in charge of administer the software) but the basic chromatographic knowledges was not that great. Once I passed her swearing on our at that time new LC/MS system, complaining about losing signal between UV and MS detector when running some initial sensitivity tests. Beeing a "non-LC-specialist" I innocently asked how she had arranged the detectors (very long tubing between UV and MS) and how come the tubing looked so thick. Today she is working with computirazed data systems from a quality assurence perspective in the pharma buissness (no lab work) so we all came out on top in the end.

So "extensive experiance" always make my suspicious unless it is followed with detailed examples, otherwise it can mean anything between runing a preset method for x thousand injections to method development, trouble shooting, research etc.

[Jade.Barker]

The risk, of course, is that someone who is *not* a student may be offended or feel they are being patronized.

I sometimes post on the student board even though I am not "a student" because I have some very elementary questions since I am new to HPLC. I think the replies on the student board have been more than fair - if anything the answers seem more patient and complete. I'm glad it is available as an option, so I have a place to post that is appropriate to my level of understanding.

Besides - I would have to be a real jerk to be offended by people trying to help me...