CDS - the debate

[abell1234]

Hi all ,
We are in the process of updating our lab to a new CDS. I have a limited knowledge of Empower or Empower 2, but I have an extensive knowledge of Chromeleon and Chemstation/Chemstore.I would like to have opinions on any of the above mentioned CDS's, or any other CDS's that may be of interest for consideration.,main considerations been :

Functionality.(ease of use , calculations, effieciences of CDS,Which is best!)
Training requirements (again ease of use, admin rights, which is best)
Vendor Support
Installation and Validation (time taken,server or stand alone/citrix server or not?, Compliance,which way to go ?!)

Any pros and cons of the above CDS's would be much appreciated.
I know chemists have they favourite CDS(I know I do), but it would be interesting to get an overall view.

Thanks in advance for your input in this

Andy

[JGK]

I have used Waters millennium and subsequently Empower 2 for a while and have had very few problems. Once familiar with it, it is quite easy to use.

Validation is more of a problem as there are really no tools provided to aid user validation, however Waters IQand OQ procedure does also inclusde a significant amount of system and software PQ when performed.


If you are working in a regulated environment where QA need access to the electronic data, the server system is a must. Plus data backup can be automated or

Having individual workstations is a nightmare if you have to back data up frequently (as it is best done when no acquisition is in progress). Also if each workstation controls more than 2 instruments it slows your analysts up when they all need the PC at the same time.

The one drawback with Waters is that unlike most other CDS' they require each user to have an individual user licence which can be costly. Consequently, if you have individual workstations and an analyst is working on two separate ones. they will occupy 2 active licences (licences are sold in blocks of 5 at ~$15,000). This is less of a problem on the server system as any user can access any system from any terminal so more than 1 license / user is never required.

[DR]

More Empower/Empower 2 related notes:

If you do dissolution profiles, Empower is good as their dissolution option will allow you to do the recursive calculations associated with profiles.

If you want to run via a Citrix server based client stack, it works pretty well but you must be aware that you can't virtualize your server and be "validated". Waters does not support that arrangement, just dedicated servers.

Empower is pretty easy to run in a "regulatory compliant" mode - I think it is one of the more robust systems out there with respect to fending chemists' attempts to subvert the regulatory inconveniences associated with it, or any other CDS that is setup for part 11/GMP/EP etc. etc. compliance. I also think that, being a market leader, the regulatory folks are quite familiar with it and they are comfortable with it.

It is not the cheapest way to go, but support for it is good, especially if it (and your hardware) is under service contract. As with any analytical instrumentation vendor, your mileage may vary with your particular location.

[AdrianF]

I have had no experience of Chromeleon but it is very highly rated for ease of use and features on chromforum.

I have used Empower. I find it very user unfriendly though like anything else you eventually get used to it. In our lab it took a very long time to set it up. It was about a year before it was in routine use and required extensive training for analysts.

[JGK]

Thinking about it further, with regard to Empower 2 you are provided with the Software, however you will not be able to access all of the functionality. For some areas, system suitability for example, you have to purchase the "option" to activate the functionality.

If you are getting a price on the software make sure all the "options" you need are included in the initial quotation (the volume discount will be larger at this point) rather than purchasing at a later date.

[unmgvar]

the best way i believe to come to a decision is based upon several factors.
you have to look at the needs for your lab.
how big is it? how many instruments? what type of instruments, which brands?
are you considering to be with a C/S installation or not. will it be citrix or TS, oracle or SQL
how much do you need to comply to regulation requirements?
do you want to be fully 21 CFR part 11 compliant for paper-less or not?
how do you do your calculations? do you use excel? do you want to get ride of excell?
will all your results be stored in a LIMS in the end? do you want to have bi-directionnal transfer of inforamtion between your LIMS to the CDS? is is this a future option only?
have you talked this with your IT people?
how will you back up the information and also archive it?
how do you think that you want to administer the user rights?
and the most important: how good is your local support? have they done a demo for you?

we use Chromeleon.
it gives excellent control in a mixed brand laboratory in a C/S configuration. especially good in preventing user from taking over HPLCs from one another, and it will happen to you in a C/S.
the basics are easy to grasps so you can in 3-4 days of work get users to run it.
if you had an excel sheet doing it then you can do it inside chromeleon. the most complex and annoying stuff can be done automatically in chromeleon. our local support created dissolution profile calculations for us and dionex will soon release theirs, they have a ICH based validation package and a related substance template.

if you have to be highly regulated then chromeleon is best at preventing the "cheats" especially for the finally printed results. all softwares can be cracked (tried it) but this one is the hardest i think.
i especiallyt like it for the dynamic behavior. the data base is very powerfull. you click on your run, open up the results directly. if you have several peaks then you can easily scroll between the peaks to see all your summerised results. if you make a change in the integration then all is updated right away. no need to reprocess and make several annoying clicks to see what you need.
the queries make it possible for you to easily combine the information from several sequences and report them as if they were one set of results.
the browser architecture permits you to see all the time all the inforamtion that you need and to easily move from one project to another. in other softwares you will need to "leave" the project. also no need for the annoying on-line offline like in chemstation or ezchrom. here it does not matter.

most important, our local reps have a strong support. they know their stuff, they understand what we need and they know how to pass the knowledge to us. if they don't know a feature in the software then they know how to get it from Dionex.

If GLP then you will need the GLP option. if you have PDA/DAD detectors then you will need the 3D option.
buy a report publisher option for at least 1-2 users so that you can make any calculations within the software

[mbicking]

I am very familiar with ChemStation and know a little about ChemStore. ChemStore appears to be a pretty useful database, but it really works best when you have large amounts of data to process. Support can be variable. I hear very good comments from some users, and very bad from others. If you live near an Agilent regional office, your chance of success is probably better.

I have not used Empower, but encounter many users. Most seem to find it adequate, but it is not perfect. Waters probably has the best marketing in the industry. They do a very good job of marketing their products. But you have to be careful that you not get caught up in the marketing hype.

I have seen enough of Chromeleon to believe it to be the best overall product on the market. I don't know about the specifics of working in a Part 11 environment, but the rest of the program has everything included'; no need to buy lots of add-ons. And I have met many of the Dionex staff (mostly from Europe), and I really like their attitudes about customer service, and listening to their customers.