Agilent 5975C MSD Turbo Pump problem

Discussions about GC-MS, LC-MS, LC-FTIR, and other "coupled" analytical techniques.

26 posts Page 1 of 2
Hello

Wonder if anyone can help ? When I entered the lab yesterday, there was a high pitch noise coming from the GC-MS. I pinpointed it to the turbo pump, which was still up at 100% speed and is pulling the correct vacuum. Its only about 18 months old, does this suggest it is about to fail ? Agilent seemed to think so, didn't ask me any other questions or try to troubleshoot, just said they'd send me a quote ! Anybody have any idea about the cost of replacement/ repair ?


Cheers
drste73 wrote:
Hello

Wonder if anyone can help ? When I entered the lab yesterday, there was a high pitch noise coming from the GC-MS. I pinpointed it to the turbo pump, which was still up at 100% speed and is pulling the correct vacuum. Its only about 18 months old, does this suggest it is about to fail ? Agilent seemed to think so, didn't ask me any other questions or try to troubleshoot, just said they'd send me a quote ! Anybody have any idea about the cost of replacement/ repair ?


Cheers


Seems like a sad song of dying bearings.
Is it german Pfeiffer ?

If so you may save $$ by sending turbo pump directly to one of their world service offices. At least in Poland they repair their turbo and forepumps for great satisfaction of customers.

Agilent doesn't repair turbopumps, they simply replace them with new or refurbished pumps (both solutions quite expensive).

In my opinion Edwards pumps last longer.

MfG
Unfortunately when they start screaming they can last a week, or a year. When the pitch changes abruptly, it's life is over.
Plus when it fails it can be even more expensive. I've seen one where the blades went from 10,000 rpm to 0 in probably less than an inch.. the blades exploded up through the grating causing dings all over the quadrupole and the walls of the manifold... aside from a few small pieces the rest of the blades were basically a magnetized dust--very difficult to remove.
Yep, and when you vent the system, they don't start up again,
I once spent a month wearing earplugs, as managment when through the red tape to replace it (that was before we got service contracts, which may be an idea :wink: , as unlike stupid medical insurance, pre-existing conditions are covered!)

Alex
dblux_ wrote:
drste73 wrote:
Hello

Wonder if anyone can help ? When I entered the lab yesterday, there was a high pitch noise coming from the GC-MS. I pinpointed it to the turbo pump, which was still up at 100% speed and is pulling the correct vacuum. Its only about 18 months old, does this suggest it is about to fail ? Agilent seemed to think so, didn't ask me any other questions or try to troubleshoot, just said they'd send me a quote ! Anybody have any idea about the cost of replacement/ repair ?


Cheers


Seems like a sad song of dying bearings.
Is it german Pfeiffer ?

If so you may save $$ by sending turbo pump directly to one of their world service offices. At least in Poland they repair their turbo and forepumps for great satisfaction of customers.

Agilent doesn't repair turbopumps, they simply replace them with new or refurbished pumps (both solutions quite expensive).

In my opinion Edwards pumps last longer.

MfG



Hi - Yes it is a pfeiffer, I'll look into sending it to them for repair - Agilent have quoted £6400 for replacement - Is 18 months a normal life span for these things ?

cheers
chemstation wrote:
Yep, and when you vent the system, they don't start up again,
I once spent a month wearing earplugs, as managment when through the red tape to replace it (that was before we got service contracts, which may be an idea :wink: , as unlike stupid medical insurance, pre-existing conditions are covered!)

Alex



Is that true ? if so that is a VERY good idea. I'll call the rep and see what he says

Thanks !
aldehyde wrote:
Plus when it fails it can be even more expensive. I've seen one where the blades went from 10,000 rpm to 0 in probably less than an inch.. the blades exploded up through the grating causing dings all over the quadrupole and the walls of the manifold... aside from a few small pieces the rest of the blades were basically a magnetized dust--very difficult to remove.



Thanks ! Boy have you got me worried now !!

Hi - Yes it is a pfeiffer, I'll look into sending it to them for repair - Agilent have quoted £6400 for replacement - Is 18 months a normal life span for these things ?

cheers


If I remember well, a year ago it was ca. 700 USD for complete refurbishement with replacing bearings.

check them:

Your service contact for United Kingdom:
Company:Pfeiffer Vacuum Ltd
ServiceCenter Milton Keynes
Street:16 Plover Close, Interchange Park
ZIP/Postal code:MK16 9PS
City:Newport Pagnell
Country:United Kingdom
T+44 1908 500600
F+44 1908 500601

18 months - it happens
dblux_ wrote:

Hi - Yes it is a pfeiffer, I'll look into sending it to them for repair - Agilent have quoted £6400 for replacement - Is 18 months a normal life span for these things ?

cheers


If I remember well, a year ago it was ca. 700 USD for complete refurbishement with replacing bearings.

check them:

Your service contact for United Kingdom:
Company:Pfeiffer Vacuum Ltd
ServiceCenter Milton Keynes
Street:16 Plover Close, Interchange Park
ZIP/Postal code:MK16 9PS
City:Newport Pagnell
Country:United Kingdom
T+44 1908 500600
F+44 1908 500601

18 months - it happens




Hi

As it happens I've contacted Pfeiffer, they were very helpful and i'm just in the process of packaging the pump up to send down to them - they quoted about 600 GBP and promised a 7 day turn around time !


Thanks for all your help !
drste73 wrote:


Hi

As it happens I've contacted Pfeiffer, they were very helpful and i'm just in the process of packaging the pump up to send down to them - they quoted about 600 GBP and promised a 7 day turn around time !


Thanks for all your help !


My pleasure.

Just for comparison, would you please quote Agilent price for refurbished pump ?
chemstation wrote:
Yep, and when you vent the system, they don't start up again,
(that was before we got service contracts, which may be an idea :wink: , as unlike stupid medical insurance, pre-existing conditions are covered!)

Alex


hehehe well that is only true to a point, usually Agilent would send an engineer in to look over the system going under contract and if the turbo is squealing unholy terror I'm pretty sure it might be a sticking point :P. They'd probably offer you a big discount on that repair though.


drste73 wrote:
Hi

As it happens I've contacted Pfeiffer, they were very helpful and i'm just in the process of packaging the pump up to send down to them - they quoted about 600 GBP and promised a 7 day turn around time !


Thanks for all your help !



Thats great :) just so you know the normal life time of a turbo pump is definitely NOT 18 months. I've seen systems 8+ years old still running on their original turbo. You have to treat them gently though, try not to run overly concentrated samples and be sure to monitor your vacuum level in order to not be running the turbo with a big leak.

I once worked with a guy who let the analyzer door sit open for an entire afternoon because he was trying to pump down and didn't realize you need to put a bit of pressure on the door when starting up to get a good seal. The rough pump oil was black and thankfully the turbo shuts down after a few minutes if sufficiently low vacuum from the rough pump isn't established. Still probably not good for it!

The other no-nos are venting while the blades are still turning or power cycling while the pump is running any more frequently than 'RARE' heheh. You can reboot the smart card from the front panel of the instrument so there should be very few reasons for power cycling the whole MS (even with the smart card rebooting the AC board is still providing power to the turbo.)
aldehyde wrote:
Thats great :) just so you know the normal life time of a turbo pump is definitely NOT 18 months. I've seen systems 8+ years old still running on their original turbo.


Pfeiffer TMH071 Turbo pump installed in 5975 has bearing which have to be replaced every 3 years, as well as the lubricant reservoir (at least every year ! ) - and you won't find a word about it in Agilent manual.
If you fulfill this schedule of maintenance, turbo pump may last even 18 years.


You can reboot the smart card from the front panel of the instrument so there should be very few reasons for power cycling the whole MS (even with the smart card rebooting the AC board is still providing power to the turbo.)


Very often when in need of rebooting smart card, front panel keys are also not operational.
The high vacuum side has a magnetic bearing with no lubricant, the other end has a ceramic bearing that IS lubricated, but the lubricant is considered permanent. I've never heard of anyone servicing this, or sending the pump to pfeiffer to be serviced apart from when the turbo fails.
aldehyde wrote:
The high vacuum side has a magnetic bearing with no lubricant, the other end has a ceramic bearing that IS lubricated,

correct
but the lubricant is considered permanent.


Pfeiffer says "The lubricant reservoir should be replaced at least once a year".

It's chapter 7.1, page 18 of TMH 071 manual: http://mmrc.caltech.edu/Vacuum/Pfeiffer ... U_071P.pdf

Omitting sugested maintenance may explain premature failures of older Pfeiffer turbo pumps.
Their newer turbopumps don't need replacing of lubricant.

BTW - turbo pump TMH 071 was mounted in MSD 5975
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