Differences between versions of HP5890.

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13 posts Page 1 of 1
We're looking to purchase a HP5890 GC and was wondering if anyone know what were the major differences between the following versions:

- HP 5890
- HP 5890 Series II
- HP 5890 E
- HP 5890 Plus

I know some have EPC control, etc. Just want to know if there are any major issues I should be aware of when deciding to purchase.

Thanks
I know originally the 5890 came with mechanical pneumatics, the Series II I believe had a mixture of both, the first EPC (electronic pressure control) units were introduced on the Series II. The E and Plus I think came after those and depending on how they were ordered could have any combination of flow controls.

On the original I remember the flow controller for detectors used needle valves, but on the Series II and up, they came with restrictor frits and used pressure to control the flow on the manual pneumatics. I think it would be the E and Plus versions before they introduced EPC for detectors.

Of course everyone upgraded them as they went along so you never know what combination they could have. Some of the changes also included how the injector towers mounted and the style of the top lid and different main board configurations as they could make the boards smaller in later years along with better wiring harness too. Functionally though they are all pretty much the same.
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.

James_Ball wrote:
I know originally the 5890 came with mechanical pneumatics, the Series II I believe had a mixture of both, the first EPC (electronic pressure control) units were introduced on the Series II. The E and Plus I think came after those and depending on how they were ordered could have any combination of flow controls.

On the original I remember the flow controller for detectors used needle valves, but on the Series II and up, they came with restrictor frits and used pressure to control the flow on the manual pneumatics. I think it would be the E and Plus versions before they introduced EPC for detectors.

Of course everyone upgraded them as they went along so you never know what combination they could have. Some of the changes also included how the injector towers mounted and the style of the top lid and different main board configurations as they could make the boards smaller in later years along with better wiring harness too. Functionally though they are all pretty much the same.
I have a series II. It has an EPC but do you know if I would need restrictor frits to control flow in the 0.2-1.0 mL/min range. It seems to me that while it seems to control He from 0.2-1 ml/min it cannot deal well with H2 at anything below 0.4mL/min. I wonder if I need a different frit in the mass flow controller or do these limitations sound about right? I'm running a 20m x 0.18mm x 1um DB-VRX column. into a 5972 MS.

Re:

LALman wrote:
James_Ball wrote:
I know originally the 5890 came with mechanical pneumatics, the Series II I believe had a mixture of both, the first EPC (electronic pressure control) units were introduced on the Series II. The E and Plus I think came after those and depending on how they were ordered could have any combination of flow controls.

On the original I remember the flow controller for detectors used needle valves, but on the Series II and up, they came with restrictor frits and used pressure to control the flow on the manual pneumatics. I think it would be the E and Plus versions before they introduced EPC for detectors.

Of course everyone upgraded them as they went along so you never know what combination they could have. Some of the changes also included how the injector towers mounted and the style of the top lid and different main board configurations as they could make the boards smaller in later years along with better wiring harness too. Functionally though they are all pretty much the same.
I have a series II. It has an EPC but do you know if I would need restrictor frits to control flow in the 0.2-1.0 mL/min range. It seems to me that while it seems to control He from 0.2-1 ml/min it cannot deal well with H2 at anything below 0.4mL/min. I wonder if I need a different frit in the mass flow controller or do these limitations sound about right? I'm running a 20m x 0.18mm x 1um DB-VRX column. into a 5972 MS.


I don't believe there were restrictors on the inlet side for those. Unless it was on the septum purge fitting possibly.

Putting that column in a pressure flow calculator it shows that for hydrogen at 0.4ml/min would require an inlet pressure of 0.32psi, so it is probably too low for the EPC to control accurately. 30m length would be 3.69psi and 40m would be 6.54psi, so maybe a longer column would help.

When I was doing hydrogen on MS I had to use 20m x 0.18 columns just to get down to a 1.0ml/minute flow and that was about as low as I wanted to go with it, 0.5 was less than 1psi and was ok for standby but didn't do well for injections, and that is with a 7890B which can handle low pressures pretty well.

The pressure control on the 5890 EPC is simply a solenoid with a needle valve sitting in a rubber seat the opens and closes quickly to control the backpressure. If the rubber seat is worn it will have more trouble controlling the pressure especially at low pressures. The earliest models were terrible for semivolatile analysis because the DCM would eat up the rubber seat fairly quickly, since it is positioned at the end of the split vent line and sees everything that exits the inlet through the split.
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
I should be fine with using 0.7 to 1.0 mL/min for Hydrogen. I was concerned that maybe the Diff pump could not handle 1mL/min of H2 because I think it says in the manual it does pump get H2 as easily as He. 1mL/min is supposed to be the upper limit for He.
I believe diffusion pumps can pump away hydrogen better than the turbo pumps can.

On the ion gauge you will see a higher pressure than you think it should be, but that is because the response to hydrogen is different than the response of helium, and actually the ion gauges are calibrated to nitrogen so both will give only an estimated ultimate pressure. I once found a table showing the difference somewhere and hydrogen is almost a factor of 10 difference on the gauge than helium at the same actual pressure.
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
James_Ball wrote:
I believe diffusion pumps can pump away hydrogen better than the turbo pumps can.

On the ion gauge you will see a higher pressure than you think it should be, but that is because the response to hydrogen is different than the response of helium, and actually the ion gauges are calibrated to nitrogen so both will give only an estimated ultimate pressure. I once found a table showing the difference somewhere and hydrogen is almost a factor of 10 difference on the gauge than helium at the same actual pressure.


Page 36 per Granville-Phillips.

https://www.mksinst.com/mam/celum/celum ... 04-MAN.pdf

If N2 is 1.0 vs. the ion gauge reading, He is .18 and H2 is .49.

The manual for the 5971 gives 6x as a rough conversion factor for He vs. actual reading, which is consistent with that value. H2 reading should be about half the actual value, or about 2.5x the He reading at the same vac level.

If you dig in that document, there's a conversion chart for convectron gauges also. Without looking, I believe they're also calibrated for N2 but I think the conversions are a bit more complicated. They're also not the same as for an ion gauge, for obvious reasons.
lespaul wrote:
We're looking to purchase a HP5890 GC and was wondering if anyone know what were the major differences between the following versions:

- HP 5890
- HP 5890 Series II
- HP 5890 E
- HP 5890 Plus


Ha !!! Our first one was a 5890A; manual pressure controls, actually was purchased with a 7671 autosampler as 7673 autosamplers were not going to be available for a half-year, and my boss feared our budget would be "appropriated" if we waited.

I think you need to make sure that one has EPC and ability to be hooked up to a computer/Chemstation, if that's what you're needing.

These were great GCs, don't know about parts availability these days.
Consumer Products Guy wrote:
lespaul wrote:
We're looking to purchase a HP5890 GC and was wondering if anyone know what were the major differences between the following versions:

- HP 5890
- HP 5890 Series II
- HP 5890 E
- HP 5890 Plus


Ha !!! Our first one was a 5890A; manual pressure controls, actually was purchased with a 7671 autosampler as 7673 autosamplers were not going to be available for a half-year, and my boss feared our budget would be "appropriated" if we waited.

I think you need to make sure that one has EPC and ability to be hooked up to a computer/Chemstation, if that's what you're needing.

These were great GCs, don't know about parts availability these days.


7671, was that the twist on towers? If so we had those on a few 5890As and they were what shipped with the 5995MSs that we had.
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
lespaul wrote:
We're looking to purchase a HP5890 GC and was wondering if anyone know what were the major differences between the following versions:

- HP 5890
- HP 5890 Series II
- HP 5890 E
- HP 5890 Plus

I know some have EPC control, etc. Just want to know if there are any major issues I should be aware of when deciding to purchase.

Thanks


I have a 5890A. I can't find info specifically for the 5890A. Can I use the 5890 manuals?

Thanks in advance.

Alan Liefting
Alan Liefting wrote:
I have a 5890A. I can't find info specifically for the 5890A. Can I use the 5890 manuals?


We had a 5890A as our first of the 5890 series. Ours was fitted with a 7671A injector as the 7673A injectors weren't ready yet, and our boss wanted us to spend the capital before it was taken away. We also used a 3392 integrator, as the 5890A was before computerization. I had to rig a contact witch on the injector to start the oven program if it was a temperature-programmed run.

That said, I think it was difficult/expensive/impossible to update a 5890A to be computerized. However, much of the 5890A was similar to the later, better models.

And we had one early 5890 updated to EPC by HP/Agilent.

So I think much of the later manuals will apply, except later manuals won't address the pneumatic controls.
Consumer Products Guy wrote:
That said, I think it was difficult/expensive/impossible to update a 5890A to be computerized. However, much of the 5890A was similar to the later, better models.

Thanks for that. I guess I should just compare the old and new manuals.

I fired (literally) the machine up this morning. Initially gave a RAM error, possibly flat backup battery, then after powering it on later it booted and started the self tests. Within a short time smoke billowed out of it but was still operating. Turned out to the RIFA brand capacitors on the mains input. It is a common problem in all sorts of mains powered items and it is easily fixed.

Cheers

Alan
Alan Liefting wrote:
Consumer Products Guy wrote:
That said, I think it was difficult/expensive/impossible to update a 5890A to be computerized. However, much of the 5890A was similar to the later, better models.

Thanks for that. I guess I should just compare the old and new manuals.

I fired (literally) the machine up this morning. Initially gave a RAM error, possibly flat backup battery, then after powering it on later it booted and started the self tests. Within a short time smoke billowed out of it but was still operating. Turned out to the RIFA brand capacitors on the mains input. It is a common problem in all sorts of mains powered items and it is easily fixed.

Cheers

Alan


I hate the smell of burning capacitors but at least with the smoke you know where the problem is when trouble shooting :)
The past is there to guide us into the future, not to dwell in.
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