it's a mean world...

Off-topic conversations and chit-chat.

10 posts Page 1 of 1
So it's happened again. I spent about 7 working days setting up methods for a difficult collection of chemicals, for a university group who said they had no cash to pay for the work at the moment, but if I could do a proof of concept, there would be hundreds of samples and a very large grant in a few months. Payment would be no problem. I did the work for free, and trained two of their staff to use our instrument.

Now I've had a mail from a friend in another lab, telling me that they've approached him, given him all the data and methods I produced, and asked him if he would like to have a go. He has a greater range of columns in his pocket than me, and is keen to try out a new instrument, would I mind? I can hardly stand in the way of progress, but it hurts.

I am so stupid doing development work for free. Gone is the friendly all-together academic cooperative age. We're in a dog-eat-dog age. Why do I always make that mistake. From now on, No money = No data, No method, No help! Do people have no shame??
Hi lmh

I spent long enough on the commercial side of method development that I know exactly what I would do: send them a bill for the full amount - they have your intellectual property, which they got by false pretences, so they can pay for it.

Peter
Peter Apps
That is downright dirty, if not as Peter suggested, actionable by billing.

Last year a local company contacted us to see if we had a triple quad LC/MS and could we do method development on it. My company said yes, and offered to have a group of them come over and tour the lab etc.

Two weeks after their visit, I received a call from a recruiting agency offering me a direct hire position at said company doing method development using mainly a triple quad LC/MS. People/businesses are shady anymore, I feel your pain lmh.
I've calmed down now, and will try to remain on good terms with all parties because it's a small world, and I suspect I will have to work on other projects with the same people, or their friends, in the future.

My boss also wondered whether we can extract some retrospective payment, but I haven't done myself any favours. Thanks so much, both, for encouraging me. In future I will be absolutely firm about finance from the word go; I have been too naive. It's sad, but nowadays it's extremely difficult to be nice. I have a good colleague who sends e-mails: "I ran your samples yesterday, and they contained some very interesting peaks. If you would like to know more, please send details of how I can invoice you." Way to go!

Paulw, that is also very shady and depressing. Some of this isn't new, either: 30 years ago or more, a chap my father knew became so unhappy with his job that he started to look for a new position using an agency. They fixed him up an interview... with his own boss, for his own job!
The real problem (aside from the lack of ethics) is that "verbal agreements aren't worth the paper they're written on". When we were in the contract lab business, we never sent *any* information to a potential client without a non-disclosure agreement in place and without stamping the method parameters and results "confidential". If they try to run around, that gives you legal ammunition to bill (and take them to court if they refuse to pay).

Now I've had a mail from a friend in another lab, telling me that they've approached him, given him all the data and methods I produced, and asked him if he would like to have a go. . . . would I mind?
If he's really a friend, then the answer "Yes, I would mind!" should be appropriate. If it's not, then he's not your friend.

. . . try to remain on good terms with all parties because it's a small world, and I suspect I will have to work on other projects with the same people, or their friends, in the future
Do you or your boss have any personal contacts at either lab? If so, it might be worth taking someone out for lunch and a heart-to-heart talk. I always try to bear in mind Napoleon's dictum "Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-- Tom Jupille
LC Resources / Separation Science Associates
tjupille@lcresources.com
+ 1 (925) 297-5374
And; in your friend's place I would be very reluctant to take on work for anyone with this particular client's history of sharp practise.

Peter
Peter Apps
Peter, agreed, I would never take on a job I knew was associated with someone else's lab without talking to both labs about their intentions and expectations, my role, and why I was involved.

Tom, yes, Napoleon was right, and I'm glad you reminded me. I will try to have a calm, clear chat with a few people who I believe to be sane. I am quite certain a lot of this is down to misunderstanding and slight lack of thought/sensitivity.
I once had a similar experience. I was a new chemist working at an environmental analysis lab. They wanted some method info from another company. They set up a meeting with the other company on the pretense that we would be collaborating in the future. They brought me along to try and figure out their wet chem methods so we could do it ourselves (without the collaboration). They never intended on collaborating. I have since left that company as I saw later there were no limits to their ethical violations. Some people will do anything for money (or to save money).
~Ty~
I'll add a bit to what Tom said. There is a company that we do a decent bit of contract work for doing development work. When they are entertaining a new API or formulation, they will send us a bit of all the materials and I'll spend a day or two fiddling with it to check the initial feasibility of doing a method. At that point, we'll contact them back and let them know whether or not we can do it. No chromatograms change hands, no method parameters change hands. I may give them resolution or plate count numbers just to give them assurance that I actually do believe it is possible. We've done this for a dozen or so projects at this point, and it has worked well. I know what I'm getting into before we write a quote for the work, and they know that they aren't throwing money into a black hole. I don't mind putting in a few days for someone I expect to follow up with a project. At the same time I want to protect my work done for my company.

With some of the stuff that goes on, I'm not even sure how safe I'd feel with a non-disclosure agreement and confidential stamps.
Thanks for that.. there is a very useful tip there. I've tended to treat my reports as a full description of the entire methodology as well as the results, both to help my client, and also because over the years I've found myself referring back to reports more than to my lab book.

I think in future I might do an initial "here's a chromatogram to prove it works, but you don't get anything else until you pay" report.
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